Dark Magic WAS: Re:help with JKR quote/ Children's reactions

[prep0strus]

No: HPFGUIDX 176815


> Debbie:
> But Christianity (at least my tradition) teaches that no one is
worthy. The
> faithful are not devoid of sin, but fail to meet expectations every day.
> Perhaps that was JKR's point in making Harry use the Cruciatus
Curse.  He is
> not the Jesus of the Potterverse.  Harry is a human being with human
> temptations, to which he sometimes succumbs.
> 
> In other words, everyone needs repentance.  Slytherins have more
> temptations, but everyone is tempted.
> 

Prep0strus:
You're right, when it comes to theology, but I still think JKR's point
in showing us that the Baron was a murderer was to continue to hit
home the idea that Slytherins are bad.  Every little thing can be
argued and looked at in a variety of ways, but all the little pieces
add up to something.  I didn't mean it as a very big point, but it's
not just a random thing that it's the Baron and not the Friar that was
the murderer.


> Debbie: Whether you think the Slytherins deserve what they get
depends on
> your views on vengeance and vigilante justice.  In my code of
justice, we
> don't hex people because they're bad people, for the same reason
that our
> justice system doesn't incarcerate people because they're bad and
they're
> going to harm us if we don't.
> 
> Slytherins have a bad rap as a group, so I'm not surprised their
motto seems
> to be that the best defense is a good offense.  In the long run, though,
> this will just beget more violence, which is exactly what we saw in the
> books.  Draco Malfoy went from trying to get the Trio punished in
PS/SS for
> being out of bounds to ethnic slurs in CoS to bearing false witness
against
> Buckbeak in PoA and eventually to scheming to kill the Headmaster in
HBP.
> And in between we had episodes like the train stomp in GoF.  Not
even an eye
> for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, but a stomp for a threat.
> 
> In the end, I don't think the Gryffindors are better than the
Slytherins.
> It's their circumstances that are different.


Prep0strus: 
I don't believe much in vigilante justice or vengeance much in real
life... but in the books, it makes for some cathartic kind of fun. 
Though often, it's not just tit for tat, but heat of the moment or
self defense.  And while your theory on a good offense is interesting,
i don't think it really holds up.

First, I don't think they have a 'bad rap'.  that implies it isn't
earned, and I think JKR has showed us that it is very much earned. 
Which is why I consider them her whipping boys, not the Griffindors'.
 Because she dumps on them, but in the books, she does not give us
nearly enough examples of goodness to make us think there is a
possibility that they are equals in any way.  They are bad, and it is
only through the subversive reading, the assumption of facts not in
evidence, and a general sympathy for characters we are told again and
again are bad (while being shown some actions that are equivalent by
'good guys') that allows them to be read otherwise.

Draco trying to get the group in trouble, I'll accept.  I can easily
see Ron & Harry trying to do the same thing... though, through the
prism of the books, I think harry would be assuming that Draco was
trying to do something bad (the way he was in HBP), and also, that
Harry was right (the way he was in HBP), while Draco would simply be
trying to get them in trouble, not actually wondering about or caring
what their reasons are.

Ethnic slurs are the red flag JKR is giving us that he's a bad seed. 
That would not be done by the good guys, period.  Draco's a jerk. 
Also, how is this any kind of 'offense' that serves him?  How is it
anything but sheer bigoted nastiness?  

Buckbeak? Neville?  Again, i don't see the argument that he's just
jumping the gun.  Buckbeak is an innocent animal.  Draco deliberately
ignored the rules, and did so by acting in a way that would have been
horrible and inappropriate even if he WASN'T warned.  Then he lied, to
cause the death of a creature, and he had no reason other than his own
amusement.  He had no reason to expect anything bad to happen to him
because of Buckbeak.  Buckbeak isn't a griffindor.  Buckbeak is just
another clear example of how horrible Draco is.

Trying to kill the headmaster... i mean, one could get into how much
worse murder is, of course, but we saw a lot more to that story.  How
he was pressured into it, how pride and ambition led into fear and
control... in its way, it's the most understandable of his actions. 
And the subplot made HBP more interesting.  Which is why the dropping
of the ball on his story in DH is such a travesty, IMO.

And the train stomp... by that point, these boys were definitely
enemies.  But the cruelty Draco displays... I don't think we'd see
that from our guys.  Maybe we would. I dunno.  But it seems quite
brutal.  And I don't really think the argument can be made that
Griffindors and Slytherins are two sides of the same coin, or that
it's all about perspective.  I think JKR did all she could to show us
that that wasn't the case.  Griffindors aren't perfect, but Slytherins
are barely human.  And while no one may be without fault, and everyone
needs some redemption, it is not the same place as where Slytherins
exist.  To rise from their innate evil and squalor, they must spend an
eternity in chains, they must spy for their former masters and die
gruesomely.  JKR could have given us good, admirable, nice, fun
Slytherins.  She didn't.  Griffindors aren't perfect, but they just
don't come close to Slytherins in imperfection, imo.

~Adam (Prep0strus)