Dark Magic WAS: Re:help with JKR quote/ Children's reactions

[lizzyben04]

No: HPFGUIDX 176890

> Mike:
<snip>
> BTW, I forgot to address your question on dark vs Dark. You had asked 
> if this is me/us constructing something that JKR has not shown in 
> canon. First, let me recommend zgirnius' post #176584, in part:
<snip>
> That was a summary statement, she went into more detail up-post. This 
> is what I read in the books. The outcome of some spells, though not 
> always pleasant, did not rise to the level of Dark (Capital). It was 
> a matter of degrees, as zgirnius said, and not that hard to guage 
> objectively, imo. 

lizzyben:

I agree w/zgirnius' definition, though he/she doesn't seem to
distinguish Dark/dark the way you do. The whole Dark/dark thing just
seems to be a matter of personal interpretation in what you consider
to be minor or major dark magic. I'd agree that the Unforgiveable
Curses, horcruxes, etc. are darker than jinxes, for example, but IMO
it all falls under the category of "Dark Magic". 


> Mike:
> Except the train rides home after books 4 & 5, I didn't see MCG 
> getting beat up by HRH. (And no Gryff jinxed MCG on 5's ride home) 
> And didn't I see Draco and Crabbe-n-Goyle bullying HRH on several 
> train rides to Hogwarts? Like in books 1, 3, 4, & 6. 

lizzyben:

Oh, thank you for reminding me of the book 5 train attack; I didn't
include that in the list. *noted* And, in retrospect, that attack is
even worse than I noticed at the time. 

Harry says that MCG were attempting to ambush him on the train, but
they never even managed to get out one jinx - which is odd, if they'd
had wands drawn in waiting & Harry did not. Couldn't they even get one
spell out when they saw Harry? Draco didn't even say something
obnoxious. Instead, nothing happens until the rest
of the DA spring out of their compartment to attack Draco & co. 

"By the time Ernie Macmillan, Hannah Abbott, Susan Bones, Justin Finch
-Fletchley, Anthony Goldstein and Terry Boot had finished using a wide
variety of the hexes and jinxes HARRY HAD TAUGHT THEM, Malfoy, Crabbe
and Goyle resembled nothing so much as three gigantic slugs squeezed
into Hogwarts uniform as Harry, Ernie and Justin hoisted them into the
luggage rack and left them there to ooze.
 
`I must say, I'm looking forward to seeing Malfoy's mother's face when
he gets off the train; said Ernie, with some satisfaction, as 
he watched Malfoy squirm above him. Ernie had never quite got over the
indignity of Malloy docking points from Hufflepuff during his brief
spell as a member of the Inquisitorial Squad.
 
`Goyle's mum'll be really pleased, though; said Ron, who had come to
investigate the source of the commotion. `He's loads better looking
now
anyway, Harry, the food trolley's just stopped if you want anything
"

So the DA gang attacks MCG w/hexes & jinxes that Harry taught them
during their meetings. Harry was actually teaching dark magic! He was
teaching them offensive battle spells as well as DADA. In addition to
the hexes & jinxes used in this scene, Harry also taught them at least
two curses - the Impediment Curse & Reductor Curse. This gives DA
members a huge fighting advantage against other students, who haven't
been formally taught dark magic spells. And a huge advantage against
Slytherins, who weren't allowed to join the club. By fifth year, the
DA are the real masters of dark magic in the school. Isn't it ironic
that "DA" can stand for Defense Association and Dark Arts?
Isn't it ironic that Hermione lifts spells directly from the Death
Eaters? At first I thought the irony was intentional, now it seems
like it was unintentional. But it's still there. 

Mike:
I suppose the 
> Slyths didn't land any jinxes, except 6 where Draco got his revenge 
> with both a jinx and a stomp.

lizzyben:

About time! 5 years of Draco getting punched, jinxed, slashed,
sluggified, stomped on & humiliated, and he *finally* manages to win a
match. Once. That's his ever-so-brief moment of acting as an actual
rival, instead of a punching bag. 

And think about it. Five years, and the Slytherins never *once*
successfully hex Harry. In contrast, Harry & co. jinx/hex Slytherins
quite often. Draco doesn't tend to resort to violence in the way the
Gryffindors do. He's all about the verbal taunts. 

When you refer to Draco "bullying" the Trio in earlier train rides,
that's essentially what he's doing. And in book one, he actually tried
to make friends w/Harry. In Book 3, he calls Ron & Harry "Potter &
Weasel." I don't really consider that "bullying" - it's
exactly equal & no violence is used. And consider Crabbe & Goyle -
they don't even taunt; they just stand there & look stupid. In 6
books, they don't insult Harry & don't punch or jinx anyone. Yet we
still think of them as bullies. Why? Because they "look the part,"
that's why. They're described as "brutal, thuggish, stupid, sneering,"
etc. So that when they are hexed-by-association w/Draco, we are fully
convinced that they deserve it. 


> Mike:
> Not exactly. Saying Harry tried to Crucio a teacher, full stop, is 
> removing a little bit of the motivation, wouldn't you say? Like, he 
> just witnessed this teacher murdering the Headmaster. That's context. 
> That the teacher was evil, ugly, etc. or that Harry was good, noble, 
> etc. is not context. Harry's use of Sectumsempra was stupid, but he 
> didn't know what the spell did and he used it to block Draco's 
> Crucio. And Draco fired first in this scuffle. That is also context.
<snip>
> Except if you ignore context and exaggerate those events then all you 
> are doing is giving them spin.

lizzyben:

Oh, yeah, I was giving it spin; not doing an unbiased rendition of
events. The narrative gives it spin, too, and a very biased POV.
That's basically my point. The spin encourages us to overlook the
violence & nastiness of the Gryffindors' attacks. 


> Mike:
> Since we spend 90% of the books following Harry, we were sure to see 
> them using more spells of all sorts than we'd see from their 
> Slytherin counterparts. BTW, where are all these dark spells used by 
> Gryffs against the Slyth students? Do you mean the Trio, Fred and 
> George against MCG in book 4? And might I counter with Draco's cursed 
> neckless and poisoned mead in book 6? Which I believe almost killed 
> two Gryffs.


lizzyben:

Nah, I disagree. If we spent the books following Draco around, we'd
*still* see him getting attacked much more often than he succeeds in
attacking his Gryf. enemies. For a list, see my & Carol's earlier
post. By book 4, the Gryfs are using many semi-dark spells against
Draco & co. By book 5, they've become proficient at "dark" hexes &
willing to use them against their enemies in the IS who try to dock
House points. By book 6, they've begun to use dark magic recklessly to
get what they want, or to get revenge when they're angry. It's a
steady, downward, progression of using more & more dark/violent magic
against other students. Sorry, can't counter w/the
mead & necklace - Draco wasn't aiming at Gryfs or getting revenge, he
was trying to complete his mission of killing DD. And the Gryfs don't
always use dark magic against Draco & co, sometimes they just do an
old-fashioned beat-down. One other such incident occurred in Book
Five, when both Harry & George pile on Draco & beat him up after he
insults Harry. 

" 'Or perhaps, said Malfoy, leering as he backed away; you can
remember what your mother's house stank like, Potter, and 
Weasleys pigsty reminds you of it — Harry was not aware of releasing
George, all he knew was that a second later both of them were
sprinting towards Malfoy. He had completely forgotten 
that all the teachers were watching: all he wanted to do was cause
Malfoy as much pain as possible; with no time to draw out his wand, he
merely drew back the fist clutching the Snitch and sank it as hard as
he could into Malfoy's stomach; "Harry! HARRY! GEORGE! NO!" He could
hear girls' voices screaming, Malfoy yelling, George swearing, 
a whistle blowing and the bellowing of the crowd around him, but he
did not care. Not until somebody in the vicinity yelled
"Impedimenta!"; and he was knocked over backwards by the force of the
spell, did he abandon the attempt to punch every inch of Malfoy he
could reach. Malfoy was curled up on the ground, whimpering and
moaning, his nose bloody..."
 
...(McGonegal) strode around behind her desk and faced them, quivering
with rage as she threw the Gryffindor scarf aside on to the floor.
"Well?" she said. "I have never seen such a disgraceful exhibition.
Two on one! Explain yourselves!"
"Malfoy provoked us," said Harry stiffly."

Big fat bullies is what they are. Two against one is disgraceful. So
is five against three (GOF stomp) or SEVEN against three (OOTP stomp).
Draco is consistently out-numbered & out-powered in these little
encounters, which means he ends up hexed, slugged, bloody, unconscious
and the good guys just end up w/a sense of satisfaction at some
well-deserved payback. 

Would *you* want to make the Gryffindors mad? LOL.


> > lizzyben:
> > 
> > <major snip>
> >
> > Slytherin students are the "bad guys", and also the "whipping boys"
> > for the Gryffindor students. One role serves the other. If they 
> > weren't so bad, it wouldn't be so much fun to beat them up.
> 
> Mike:
> I'm going to shock you, because I essentially agree with you here and 
> in the part I snipped. JKR does have the good guy Gryffs throwing out 
> a lot of jinxes and hexes for laughs. I suppose she thought the 
> adolescent, slap-stick humor would appeal to the younger male 
> audience. Personally, I found Fred and George's one-liners much 
> funnier than their magical pranks. Though those pranks often set up 
> the one-liners. 

lizzyben:

I'm not sure she did it to appeal to a specific audience; JKR has
often said that she wrote these books for herself & I think that's her
sense of humor. It's just different from my own - I don't like
physical violence or slapstick much. And I also liked F&G's one-liners
much better than their pranks. And I often found Draco & Snape funny,
in their own way. In general, it seems like Slytherins are more about
sarcastic verbal humor, while Gryffindors tend to go for the physical
humor.  And also, IMO we can't overlook the revenge theme, which I
consider one of the most important themes of the series. JKR has said
that writing allows you to get revenge on people, & IMO the beat-downs
of Slytherins are a part of that. It's a type of wish-fulfillment. 

Mike:
> I do think that most of the semi-dark magic used by HRH was 
> purposeful and justified. 

lizzyben:

BIG disagreement here. Most of the time, they aren't using these hexes
as self-defense, but simply because someone annoyed them or crossed
them. And that wouldn't fly in the real world at all. These jinxes
*hurt* people; they are violent. It's the equivalence of punching or
burning someone because they said something mean or obnoxious to you.
You can't DO that. In the real world, if Harry beats someone bloody,
he can't claim "oh, he provoked me" as a valid excuse. Ginny can't
claim that she's justified in hexing/hurting Smith simply because he
annoys her. It's using violence to respond to an interpersonal
problem. Anytime someone uses violence to retaliate for a non-violent
insult, that's assault & battery, pure & simple. And that's a totally
unjustified use of violent/dark magic.  

Mike:
And, yeah, I wish she had put more jinxes 
> and hexes from the Slyth students in the mix to justify the "Dark 
> Arts" House motif she wants us to buy into. I suppose she thought 
> having most of the DEs being former Slyths was enough. But 
> considering the stage time imbalance in favor of the Gryffs, she 
> could have done much more to back up her proposition.
> 
> Mike
>

lizzyben:

And here we agree. But if you sell the image, you don't need the
reality. How many books did we assume that the Slytherin students were
into "Dark Arts" because Harry & JKR told us so? How easy was it to
assume that Gryffindors *hated* dark magic & wouldn't use it - in
spite of the evidence right in front of us? How easy it was to assume
that Gryffindors had a right to dish out violence & pain to people
simply because they are characterized as "good & noble?" How easy was
it to go along w/the current & agree that Draco "deserved it", even
though he was almost always the victim? After all, if he wouldn't keep
saying things that make the Gryffindors angry, they wouldn't have to
hit him. It's his own fault, really...

And there we enter the mindset of an abuser or a bully. It's almost
scary how easy it is to be emotionally manipulated into supporting
violence. I keep thinking JKR is going to announce "this was a highly
sophisticated experiment...."


lizzyben