Dark Magic and Retribution

[Mike]

No: HPFGUIDX 176901

> lizzyben:
>  <snip>
> The whole Dark/dark thing just seems to be a matter of personal 
> interpretation <snip>

Mike:
Yep, lacking a definition from the author, what else do we have 
besides "interpretation"? Obviously I believe I am correctly 
interpreting canon. And you also see a difference between the Dark 
Magic of Inferi, Horcruxes, the Unforgivables, etc. and the not as 
dark Impedimenta, Stupefy, Petrificus Totalus, etc. So I guess I'm 
not understanding why you still say you don't see any difference. 
Unless you really do see Stupefy and AK as equally dark?!


> lizzyben:
> <snip>
> 
> Harry says that MCG were attempting to ambush him on the train, but
> they never even managed to get out one jinx - which is odd, if 
> they'd had wands drawn in waiting & Harry did not. <snip>

Mike:
My impression was that the erstwhile DA members saw Draco and co. 
walk past with wands out and sprang from their compartments hitting 
those three from behind, catching Draco and co. unawares.



> lizzyben:
> <snip the canon>
> 
> So the DA gang attacks MCG w/hexes & jinxes that Harry taught them
> during their meetings. Harry was actually teaching dark magic! 

Mike:
Hexes and jinxes that Hermione looked up in library books and taught 
Harry in GoF for the TWT. Sooo, how should this violate my moral 
sensibilities? And of course Draco and co. were only planning on 
hitting Harry with the tickling jinx,... yeah,... right!

Since ALL jinxes, hexes, and curses designed to attack another being 
have some degree of dark to them, all we have to insist on is that 
everybody in the Potterverse plays nice, and we can eliminate all 
darkness. Hmmm, sounds like such an interesting universe, why didn't 
JKR write that one?



> lizzyben:
> By fifth year, the DA are the real masters of dark magic in the 
> school. <snip>

Mike:
Right, who are they to arm themselves against the Death Eaters? Why 
didn't they concentrate on those householdy spells that Tonks 
couldn't master and wash and dust the DEs into submission? I have no 
idea what you expected them to be learning in an alternate DADA 
class, could you give me an example of a non dark spell you think 
would be of value to them in a fight? (Besides Protego, which they 
did learn) Or, did you just expect them to not fight, to run away or 
submit to Voldemort?


> lizzyben:
> Isn't it ironic that Hermione lifts spells directly from the Death
> Eaters? 

Mike:
Nope, concept, not the Dark Mark itself. I believe that was quite 
clear.


> lizzyben:
> 
> About time! 5 years of Draco getting punched, jinxed, slashed,
> sluggified, stomped on & humiliated, and he *finally* manages to 
> win a match. Once. That's his ever-so-brief moment of acting as an 
> actual rival, instead of a punching bag.

Mike:
I actually saw Draco's revenge in HBP as Karmic justice for the smack 
down he took in the GoF's train ride. But you are loosing me here 
with all these other supposed beat downs Draco took. My knowledge of 
canon in books 1 - 5 rivals Carol's (nobody betters Carol <g>), and 
I'm unaware of the vast amount of magical and physical violence you 
are claiming by the Trio against Draco. 

For instance, nothing in PS, the dueling club only in CoS (Draco out 
jinxed Harry 3 to 1 here), Hermione's slap in PoA and Draco dressed 
as dementor to try to get Harry to fall off broom again where Harry 
fires off his Patronus, the coincidental jinxes fired by Harry and 
Draco that hit Goyle and Hermione in GoF until the train ride, and 
Fred and Harry dropping the gloves on Draco after the Quidditch match 
in OotP. BTW, Draco getting ferret bounced was by a Death Eater, not 
a Gryff, not an Order member, and stopped by a Gryff (McGonnagall).

Each of the above instances were HRH reacting to Draco's taunts 
against others, not taunts against themselves. I think it was right 
for the Trio to come to the defence of the others, I see nothing 
wrong with it. 

And where was all this dark magic? Two purely non magical fisticuffs, 
one coincidental magical attack and ONE magical attack. Against 
Draco's non magical dementor imitation and Draco's errant magical 
attack against Harry in GoF which resulted in the ferret bounce.


> lizzyben:
> 
> And think about it. Five years, and the Slytherins never *once*
> successfully hex Harry. In contrast, Harry & co. jinx/hex Slytherins
> quite often. Draco doesn't tend to resort to violence in the way the
> Gryffindors do. He's all about the verbal taunts.

Mike:
Why is it Harry's fault that Draco is a bad shot? And where were all 
those successful jinxes/hexes of HRH against the Slytherins again?

 
> lizzyben:
> When you refer to Draco "bullying" the Trio in earlier train rides,
> that's essentially what he's doing. And in book one, he actually 
> tried to make friends w/Harry. 

Mike:
It's usually a good idea when attempting to make friends to bring 
along a couple of body guards and to make derogatory comments toward 
the one friend Harry has managed to make in his life. Evince ones 
upper crust breeding and then warn Harry that if he doesn't watch his 
step he could "go the same way of [his] parents". Hell of an effort 
on Draco's part. 


> lizzyben:
> 
> <snip>  The spin encourages us to overlook the
> violence & nastiness of the Gryffindors' attacks.

Mike:
Broken record here, but again, I'm not seeing near as much violence 
as you seem to be convinced of.


> lizzyben:
> 
> Nah, I disagree. <snip>  For a list, see my & Carol's earlier
> post. By book 4, the Gryfs are using many semi-dark spells against
> Draco & co. By book 5, they've become proficient at "dark" hexes &
> willing to use them against their enemies in the IS who try to dock
> House points. 

Mike:
By book 4, huh? Could you give me one "semi-dark spell", let alone 
many? I'm assuming you mean in books 1 thru 3 when you say "by book 
4", and I've acknowledge the train ride scene as the Only one. And 
which "dark" hex did a Gryff use against an IS member? We don't know 
who hexed Warrington or Pansy.


> lizzyben:
> Sorry, can't counter w/the mead & necklace - Draco wasn't 
> aiming at Gryfs or getting revenge, 

Mike:
Geez, the two times Draco actually gets Gryffs and it doesn't count. 
What does this poor guy gotta do to get the credit due to him? 
Besides, he was aiming for a Gryff alumnus, Dumbledore. 



> lizzyben:
> Big fat bullies is what they are. Two against one is disgraceful. So
> is five against three (GOF stomp) or SEVEN against three (OOTP 
> stomp). Draco is consistently out-numbered & out-powered in these 
> little encounters, which means he ends up hexed, slugged, bloody, 
> unconscious and the good guys just end up w/a sense of satisfaction 
> at some well-deserved payback.

Mike:
Ya know, if Draco is going to insist on acting the ass, you'd think 
he'd learn to bring more backup with him. He continually taunts 
others until he finds the right buttons to push. Then he's surprised 
that people react to getting their buttons pushed. Not too bright for 
a bully, is he?


> lizzyben:
> Would *you* want to make the Gryffindors mad? LOL.

Mike:
Umm, No. So why does Draco persist in this endeavor?


> lizzyben:
> 
> <snip>  And I often found Draco & Snape funny, in their own 
> way. In general, it seems like Slytherins are more about
> sarcastic verbal humor, while Gryffindors tend to go for the 
> physical humor.  

Mike:
I agree with Magpie, I found Draco hilarious in the CoMC classes. Of 
course part of it was watching him squirm when he was worried about 
what new creature he's about to meet.



> > Mike:
> > I do think that most of the semi-dark magic used by HRH was 
> > purposeful and justified. 
> 
> lizzyben:
> 
> BIG disagreement here. Most of the time, they aren't using these 
> hexes as self-defense, but simply because someone annoyed them or 
> crossed them. 

Mike:
Purposeful isn't always in self-defence. Hermione's hex of the DA 
roster was purposeful, not self defence, imo. Or as you put it, 
against someone who crossed them - purposeful. I think their use was 
justified, especially since most of the hexes and jinxes I saw them 
use were against DEs. 


> lizzyben:
> And that wouldn't fly in the real world at all. <snip>

Mike:
Whoa. Hexes and jinxes don't exist in the RW, at least that I'm aware 
of. Potterverse is a different world, violence seems to be every day 
occurrences, and they have magic that reverses any damage quite 
easily. If you are trying to convince me I should apply my RW 
standards to the WW, I'll ask you, how? I don't have a wand, I can't 
take a potion to regrow bones, and if I fell off a broom from 100 
feet in the air I'd be dead. How I got that broom to fly, I'm not 
sure. <eg>


> lizzyben:
> 
> <snip>
> 
> And there we enter the mindset of an abuser or a bully. It's almost
> scary how easy it is to be emotionally manipulated into supporting
> violence. 

Mike:
Not if you remember that you are discussing a book and the violence 
is more like cartoon violence in their world. After both of the train 
ride smack downs we saw Draco and co. reappear just fine in the 
following books. That's the way of this world. I accept that as a 
given.

The only things that are not cartoon violence are torturing and 
death, they are presented as real violence. And on the GoF train ride 
home Harry has not two weeks prior experienced torture and narrowly 
avoided death, from the guy that killed his parents. Those deaths he 
was also forcibly reminded of in the Priori Incantatum scene. 

Now here comes the son of one of LV's followers, someone who knows 
that LV is back, and he decides it's a good time to taunt Harry and 
co. with their precarious position in their world. Harry already 
knows that LV wants him dead, he just doesn't know why. Then Draco 
makes light of Cedric's death. I not only understand Harry's 
reaction, I find that reaction entirely *justified*. You may say that 
I am being manipulated, I say that I am reacting logically to the 
situation that is being presented.

Mike