Draco...Interesting?

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 176997

> ***Katie:
> I don't think either Harry or JKR is an "essentialist". Their 
> opinions on people change, and people really do change. Now, I 
agree 
> with Magpie that Draco's character did not change as much as was 
> expected based on HBP. However, I disagree entirely that "Dudley 
> liked Harry when he saved his life."
> 
> Dudley didn't just like Harry in that moment that Harry saved him, 
> and then go back to being the way he always was, and he didn't 
only 
> like Harry because he saved him. The dementor attack brought on a 
> change of attitude and POV from Dudley. Dudley realized - probably 
> in a very shocking and difficult moment - that Harry is a 
different 
> person than Dudley had always supposed him to be. Dudley had a 
> epiphany. He realized that Harry was not weak, but strong. Not 
> wimpy, but brave. Not selfish, but selfless. Not worthless, but 
> inherently full of worth. It was Dudley's wake-up call. It was a 
> profoundly changed Dudley who put that cup of tea outside of 
Harry's 
> door, who shook his hand before the Dursley's left. Dudley 
realized 
> he could be wrong, Dudley realized his parents could be wrong, and 
> he realized that the world is bigger than himself and Little 
> Whinging. I liked, very much, the Dudley who I saw in the 
beginning 
> of DH, and I would never have said that about him in the first 4 
> books. 

Magpie:
::shrug:: Not to me. I thought Harry just saved his life and so 
Dudley comically then thought he was cool and made him tea. I can't 
even imagine Dudley puzzling out something as significant as "Where 
I always supposed him to be wimpy was brave, not selfish but 
selfless, not weak but strong, not worthless but full of worth! My 
parents were wrong, I was wrong etc." I think he just always saw 
Harry as some kid in the house to beat up and barely thought about 
him, and then he saved his life and was cool. Cute moment, not that 
big of a deal imo. I don't feel like Dudley's developed enough to 
really support it as a huge moment showing me how People Can Change 
in really fundamental ways that rock Harry's world. I thought the 
book was just very careful to avoid any moments all that perspective-
changing for Harry. 

Sorry. This was just a book/series that made far more of an 
impression on me in the way it showed people not changing much than 
it did about people changing, so I can't honestly agree with any of 
the bigger things about change. In fact, whenever people argue that 
the bits of change that are there are significant, they just seem to 
amplify my impression of how little there is to work with, like 
trying to make mountains out of mole hills because it seems like 
there should be a mountain there. Maybe there just isn't a mountain 
there.

Katie:> 
> And as for people changing - I can't think of books where 
characters 
> grow and change MORE than they do in HP.

Magpie:
Really? Wow. Even if I did think characters grew and changed a lot, 
to honestly not be able to think of books where they did it more? I 
think I'd read more books if that were the case. This can't be as 
good as it gets. Books in this genre usually aren't big on character 
*development* and HP is not hugely different imo.

The kids grow, literally, from 11 to 17, so there's some aspects 
where yeah, they're going to change. You can't write an 11 year old 
as a 17 year old (though adults can kind of peter out after 17 and 
remain obsessed with their own life at Hogwarts--again, an 
indication that changing throughout life isn't a big focus of the 
series). But imo everybody comes back to the books knowing they're 
meeting the same characters they've always seen, and they get their 
wish.

katie:
> 
> Harry - Wimpy, frightened, abused child who is completely unsure 
of 
> himself turns into brave, heroic, powerful wizard who battles dark 
> forces. 

Magpie:
Harry--Brave, heroic wizard who battles dark forces. That's PS/SS. 
Harry was never wimpy, frightened or even abused in terms of his 
personality. He was defiant.

Katie:> 
> Harry again - Close-minded, prejudiced teenager turns into a man 
who 
> understands that everyone is an individual and that he shouldn't 
> judge a book by it's cover.

Magpie:
Harry again--Close-minded, prejudiced teenager who turns into a man 
without ever having his judgments challenged too much. No Jane 
Austen "My whole preception of myself is crumbling!" transformative 
scenes for Harry. New information about other people was not central 
to his development imo. 

Katie:> 
> Hermione - Haughty, obnoxious know-it-all turns into helpful, 
kind, 
> thoughtful and motherly witch who selflessly takes care of her 
> friends. (I know many will disagree with this...just IMO)

Magpie:
Hermione--Haughty, obnoxious know-it-all who was always and still is 
able to be kind and thoughtful and motherly and selfless to her 
friends. Hermione of PS/SS=Hermione of DH.

Katie:> 
> Just a few examples. My point is, whatever your opinion of their 
> ultimate incarnations, people do very much change in HP. Whether 
you 
> like them or not is a different issue, but they do change.
> 

Magpie:
All examples I completely disagree with. They don't change very 
much. Nor do they have to change--the fact that they stay the same 
is part of the appeal of the series (and they do of course change 
somewhat from 11-17). You're right that whether or not I like them 
is not the issue, but pretty much everything you've said that I 
agreed with about the characters was true before the end of PS/SS. 
They get older, they get taller, they get more skilled and 
understand more. But these are still the same people I met as 11 
year olds in PS/SS. And as I said, I think the fact that the 
characters are always who they are is part of the appeal of the 
series. But that's why I also just don't agree with the idea that 
they're in fact going through fundamental changes in personality.

Once a character shows his/her true self in this universe, imo, 
that's his/her true self. Every time it seems like there's a set up 
for more of a fundamental change to me it seemed like it was neatly 
avoided or underplayed. That seemed part of the way character worked 
and often worked well. So maybe messing with it would have caused 
problems. But no, if somebody said to give them a series where the 
characters changed and transformed I would never give them HP. I 
think you could easily read PS/SS, go to DH and never have to 
ask, "Gee, what happened to him/her?" I'm not always saying it as a 
criticism--a lot of the story is dramatic because of this. It's just 
that's why I don't think you can have it both ways. 

-m