Dark Book - Blood and Cruelty

[lizzyben04]

No: HPFGUIDX 177207

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboyminn at ...> wrote:
>
> ---  "lizzyben04" <lizzyben04@> wrote:
Yeah, Draco made Hermione angry - 
> > she still assaulted him. ...
> 
> bboyminn:
> 
> Draco didn't just talk to Hermione, he threatened her.
> You as an American Lawyer must understand the 
> difference between Assault and Battery. You can be
> Assaulted without physical contact. Once physical 
> contact occurs we move into the realm of Battery.
> 
> Draco threatened Hermione's life. 
If that makes 
> Hermione reasonably fear for her safety and her
> life, she is within her rights to defend herself,
> and her friend are withing their rights to assist
> in defending her since Draco has two very big goons
> with him. 


lizzyben:

Do you mean when Hermione slapped Draco in POA? He never threatened
her, or even insulted her - she slapped him because he laughed at Hagrid.

"Have you ever seen anything quite as pathetic?" said Malfoy. "And
he's supposed to be our teacher!"
Harry and Ron both made furious moves toward Malfoy, but Hermione got
there first -- SMACK!
She had slapped Malfoy across the face with all the strength she could
muster. Malfoy staggered. Harry, Ron, Crabbe, and Goyle stood
flabbergasted as Hermione raised her hand again.
"Don't you dare call Hagrid pathetic, you foul -- you evil --"
"Hermione!" said Ron weakly, and he tried to grab her hand as she
swung it back.
"Get off, Ron!"
Hermione pulled out her wand. Malfoy stepped backward. Crabbe and
Goyle looked at him for instructions, thoroughly bewildered.
"C'mon," Malfoy muttered, and in a moment, all three of them had
disappeared into the passageway to the dungeons." (POA, 245)

Not only did Hermione hit him once, she was about to hit him again
when Ron grabbed her arm, and then drew out her wand to hex him. And
what do Draco & his two scary goons do? Absolutely nothing. They
beat a hasty retreat. I fail to see how Hermione was in any way
threatened here - she was the instigator of violence. And I think her
actions had less to do w/Draco himself than the timing - she was
stressed out & worried about Buckbeak, using a time-turner to take
tons of classes, losing sleep... and she was looking for a release
for that anger. IMO.

Maybe you're referring to the GOF Train Stomp?

 "(Harry's) hand gripped his wand under his robes.
 "You've picked the losing side, Potter! I warned you! I told you you
ought to choose your company more carefully, remember? When we met on
the train, first day at Hogwarts? I told you not to hang around with
riffraff like this!" He jerked his head at Ron and Hermione. "Too late
now. Potter! They'll be the first to go, now the Dark Lord's back!
Mudbloods and Muggle-lovers first! Well - second - Diggory was the f-"
 It was as though someone had exploded a box of fireworks within the
compartment. Blinded by the blaze of the spells that had blasted from
every direction, deafened by a series of bangs, Harry blinked and
looked down at the floor.
 Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle were all lying unconscious in the doorway.
  He, Ron, and Hermione were on their feet, all three of them having
used a different hex.
 Nor were they the only ones to have done so.
"Thought we'd see what those three were up to," said Fred
matter-of-factly,stepping onto Goyle and into the compartment. He had
his wand out, and so did George, who was careful to tread on Malfoy as
he followed Fred inside.
...
"Well, let's not leave them here, they don't add much to the decor."
Ron, Harry, and George kicked, rolled, and pushed the unconscious
Malfoy,Crabbe, and Goyle - each of whom looked distinctly the worse
for the jumble of jinxes with which they had been hit - out into the
corridor.
"Exploding Snap, anyone?" said Fred, pulling out a pack of cards. "
(GOF, 470).

And yes, what Draco said was horrible. No question. But it was in no
way a threat of imminent harm. Draco didn't have a wand drawn, he
wasn't directly threatening to hurt HRH; he was taunting Harry about
choosing the "losing side." Draco was using verbal jeers, as usual.
It's the Gryfindors that respond w/overwhelming physical force -
jinxing Draco (and his 2 silent companions) into unconsciousness.

Now, if the Malfoys sued HRH for battery & took these incidents to
civil court, I can guarantee that they would win. 

Plaintiff: Your Honor, the Defendant clearly intended to harm the
Plaintiff when he (slapped, jinxed) the Plaintiff, he acted to harm
the Plaintiff, and his actions resulted in a harmful or offensive
touching to the Plaintiff. Thus, all the elements of battery are
satisfied. 

Defense: But Your Honor! He made them angry!


(LOL at image of Draco & Harry in the People's Court). 


Steve:
> The point is /words/ CAN constitute an assault, and
> once assaulted, once you reasonably fear for your
> life and/or bodily safety, you are allowed to defend
> yourself.

lizzyben:

No. Threats of imminent physical harm can constitute an assault.
Words, insults, sneers - no. You just don't have the legal right to
respond to insults or taunts w/violence. (in the US, at least,
Potterverse rules obviously vary).

Steve:
> Draco is the provoker. He is the initiator. He 
> continual creates situations where others are 
> threatened and intimidated, and he pay a price for
> that. That is Draco's only problem. He can start a
> fight, he just can't finish it. Not unless the
> advantage is massively on his side. 


lizzyben:

Yeah, he can start a "verbal" fight, he just can't finish a "physical"
one. This is because Harry really has all the power here. Going w/my
assault analogy - people will often fight & say horrible things to
each other. That's bad, but it's not illegal. When one party responds
with physical violence to the other, that's where it crosses the line
into criminal assault.

Steve:
> This is classic bullying behavior. Tease and taunt
> and poke and prod and provoke beyond endurance and
> when the victim defends themselves, the bully is 
> always the first to cry foul. Yet, the victim as
> suppose to quietly endure the bullying and stick to
> the Code of the Playground.

lizzyben:

Actually, it isn't. Snape bullies his students because he is the one
w/the power over these children. Fred & George bully first-years when
they give them candy that will make their noses bleed. Draco "bullies"
or more like, "attempts to bully" the Trio, and is quickly pwned. He
never wins! The text works overtime to convince us that Draco is a
bully, yet he's the one who usually ends up hurt at the end of these
encounters. But, the text assures us, he deserved physical violence
for being such an awful person. Sorry, I can't get on board with that.
First of all because I think it's such a dangerous rationale -
rationalizing the use of violence as an outlet for anger. Second,
these are kids' books! What kind of lesson is that? Get revenge on
your enemies, punch them, knock them unconscious, & you won't even get
into trouble! When Ginny hexes Smith, Slughorn doesn't punish her -
he's actually impressed & invites her to join his club. It's total
wish-fulfillment.

Steve:
> Screw that. If Draco can't accept the heat, then
> maybe he should back off a little. You can't provoke
> people then whine when they are provoke to action.
> <snip>
> There is a line that must be drawn in the sand that
> tells bully that you have your limits. You will
> tolerate their thuggish behavior up to a point, but
> pushed beyond that point, you will defend yourself
> WITH EXTREME PREJUDICE.
> 
> So says I.


lizzyben:

Well, my line is very different. I liked Hermione's "twitchy little
ferret" comeback. If Draco's using your-mama insults, why don't they,
I don't know, insult him back? Come on, be creative. Why the immediate
resort to violence?

In real life, the law's line is quite different. "Extreme prejudice"
is an assassination, no? Isn't that a bit extreme? I don't understand
the repeated references to "defending yourself" - Draco never used
violence or the threat of violence in either of these incidents. He's
usually a verbal taunter, who gets some physical violence as payback.
That's NOT self-defense.  It disturbs me somewhat that the books seems
to agree that people have the right to respond to verbal insults
w/physical punches & violence. You don't have that right in real life.
You *shouldn't* have that right in a civil society. If everyone could
use violence against anyone who angered them, the world would look a
lot like, well, the Potterverse. 


lizzyben