Dark Book - Blood and Cruelty/ Draco

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No: HPFGUIDX 177265


> Betsy Hp:
> I'm assuming every student at Hogwarts has an opinion about Harry
> Potter, yes.  What with the cheering and jeering I think the books
> back that assumption up. Frankly, I'd love to see evidence of Harry
> introducing himself to a fellow student and that student
saying, "Now
> who are you again?"  Good Lord, even Loony Luna knows who Harry is.
>
> And that's really all it takes to be a BMOC.

Amy:

And I still strongly disagree, both that this is all it takes to be
BMOC, and that the books back this assumption up.  Harry is
notorious. Everyone knows his name. I get that. Still think
it's extremely weird to assume that this is all it takes to be BMOC.
Especially since we have a firmly canon BMOC in Cedric Diggory, and
Harry didn't even know his name until the third year.

> > >>Amy:
> > <snip>...and I think this is the first time I've ever heard
Harry
> > called the "darling" of most of the staff...most of the staff
that
> > he hardly knows exist, I might point out.
> > <snip>
>
> Betsy Hp:
> And I'll point out (again) that it *doesn't matter* if Harry knows
> someone or not.  They know him.  I did make up the "darling of the
> staff" phrase all by myself. <g> JKR doesn't use it. But the staff
> (expect for Snape) do seem to like Harry quite a bit.  The ones we
> know anyway.  McGonagall, Trewlawney, Hagrid, Flitwick, Sprout,
> Slughorn all show at various times, that they think Harry is a good
> boy.
>
> And that's really all it takes to be a BMOC.

Amy:

(Sorry, I did forget about Slughorn, I should have added him to the
list).

Nor do I disagree that they think he's a good boy; this still doesn't
indicate to me that any more than maybe four teachers on that list
(though even Trelawney's a long stretch) give him more than a passing
thought when he's not drawing their immediate attention. Of these
four, it's possible that three of them might still be raving about
Harry years after graduation (the way McG, Flitwick, Sprout and
Hagrid did about Sirius and James, or the way Slughorn does about
Lily). This is what, to me, would indicate either BMOC, or "darling"
of the staff. Them not having Snape-level hatred for Harry doesn't
quite meet the cut. Neither, for that matter, does the lukewarm
approval of six members of the staff, out of who knows how many.

> > >>Amy:
> > I think there's a difference between people knowing of you
> > (and possibly not thinking badly of you), and liking you well
enough
> > to call yourself popular.

> Betsy Hp:
> Ah, see I'd say being known by all is pretty much a massive part of
> being "popular".  I'm not saying Harry's Ferris Bueller.  I'm
saying
> he's BMOC.  Everyone knows, everyone has an opinion, and everyone
> thinks Harry's got something they don't and for the most part they
> admire him for it.  Even if sometimes they're angry at him.


I guess this is where we'd have to agree to disagree. Because I feel
there's a huge difference between popularity and notoriety, and the
term BMOC has strong connotations to the former, rather than the
latter. Maybe I feel particularly iffy about this issue because I
came from a high school with about 100 students in total, and
everyone knew everyone else's name, so I just can't agree that this
is all it takes to be BMOC. If "everybody" really did have a firm,
admiring opinion of Harry, his "popularity" would not fluctuate as
much as it does. You can't decide one day that you like someone
because you've decided to believe he DIDN'T Petrify your friend; and
then later on dislike the same person because you've decided he stole
your House glory from you, and then decide *again* that you like him
despite the rumours that he's a liar. Well, of course you could, but
that just says that you never had a firm opinion on said person in
the first place.

And I'm not saying the students' opinion of Harry has to be fixed in
one place all the time; in fact, my point is rather that it *isn't*
fixed. But you mentioned later on in your post that Harry's friends
are rarely swayed by whatever happens to be the rumor of the week,
and you're right, but that's because they know him well enough to
have a fixed opinion -- and they like him well enough for that
opinion to be a good, admirable one. They like him well enough to
fight for him (regarding the badges, anyway), as you pointed out.
That's what I personally think it means to be popular, in the way you
seem to define Big Man on Campus. For example, you did say people
weren't wearing the badges *for* Draco specifically, but the
Hufflepuffs at least, and some of the Ravenclaws were wearing the
badges *for* Cedric, because they all liked him well enough to make
an
issue of this; this didn't happen with Harry, not even on the part of
the Gryffindors. Enough people have to actually like you -- to do
that, they have to actually know you, at least well enough to
reasonably guess when something said about you is true, and when it's
utter BS. We know that the overall good opinion about Cedric is a
fixed one, because we know the Weasley Twins (and Seamus, I think)
don't like him, yet the general consensus is STILL that Cedric is the
most popular guy in school. If the Weasley Twins had started a rumour
about Cedric, I doubt it would have changed anything.

I'm well aware of the "popular-mean-girls-that-no-one-actually-likes-
but-everyone-follows-to-keep-out-of-troube" stereotype, but IMO, not
only is that stereotype a huge contradiction in itself, I also gather
it's not necessarily what you are referring to with Harry, yes?

> > >>Amy:
> > My point was that there was maybe 30 students, tops, in that
group,
> > and the majority of them were there to pass their OWL/NEWT
exams;
> > not because Harry or his name had any particular pull...<snip>
>
> Betsy Hp:
> Ooh, I *strongly* disagree with that.  The students (there by
> invitation only, by the way) were there to hear Harry tell his
> story.  Remember, that's why Harry was so annoyed at Hermione at
> first.
>

Amy:

Like I said, because they wanted to find out whether or not he was
crazy. How does this indicate popularity?

Btw, if the students were there by invite only, exactly what was up
with Zacharias and Marietta?

> > >>Amy:
> > I'm sorry, maybe it's a difference of opinions, but I can't count
a
> > group of six students as a "large" one that somehow surpasses the
> > combined Households of Slytherin and Hufflepuff, regardless of
what
> > they were doing.
>

> Betsy Hp:
> For one, Draco joined a moving train with that "smear campaign".
> Hufflepuffs were pissed at Harry for Cedric's sake (battle of the
> BMOCs <g>) and Slytherins don't like Harry because of their natural
> evilness.  Draco just made badges for everyone to express an
opinion
> already held.  Heck, I'd be surprised if most of the badge wearers
> (especially the Hufflepuffs) didn't even know who'd made them.


Amy:

Natural evilness or whatever aside, isn't this the basic idea behind
the success of being picked on? You can't get people to laugh en
masse at someone for an opinion that only you hold, no matter who you
are. Btw, it wasn't just the Hufflepuffs -- Ravenclaws were wearing
the badges, too.

If this example doesn't work for you, though, how about "Weasley is
Our King"? Maybe Draco's fainting dramatics that had the Slytherin
table in hysterics? However Harry personally feels about the students
laughing at him, there's no way to spin six students to a quarter (or
half, or even three quarters of the school), as Harry having more
social influence than Draco.

I've seen them cheer for Harry, I'm not saying that he's "just some
guy at their school", I'll even grant that the students cheer over
something he's done enough times to indicate that they (for the most
part) have a good opinion of him. But we're never shown in canon that
Harry has the kind of influence it would take to get huge masses of
people to point and laugh at one person, whereas we're shown on at
least three separate occasions that Draco has done exactly that.
Draco rarely has the upper hand in his and Harry's confrontations,
but I really  can't see any "taking on the Man" aspect in it. That's
not just about taking on someone a lot of people like, that also
implies taking on someone when the general masses are far more likely
to laugh at you than at him.

And maybe that's what should happen, since the things Draco goes
through at Harry's hands are fairly humiliating. But that is not how
it happens. The closest that might apply is when Draco is knocked
over by Harry's Patronus, and even then we'd have to assume that more
people other than Harry and Ron are laughing at Draco. In their more
frequent, non-physical fights, it's usually Draco who prompts the
laughter at Harry's expense from large groups of people.

Amy