Dumbledore

[lizzyben04]

No: HPFGUIDX 177384


> Bart:
> Actually, Dumbledore's initial callousness towards Snape is out of 
character for him. As Dumbledore rarely does anything without a 
reason, it is reasonable to assume that there was a reason behind 
this, as well. ... Yet, Snape had let himself be used as a 
pawn. In a different time, or in a different house, Snape may well 
have become what Gildylocks pretended to be (well, without the award 
winning smile).

lizzyben: 

Snape was used as a pawn until the day he died. First he was LV's 
pawn, then DD's pawn.

Bart:
> I have mentioned before that Snape reminded me, to a certain 
extent, of the young Ebeneezer Scrooge from A CHRISTMAS CAROL; 
notably, the memory from DH where Lily finally breaks it off is 
reminiscent of when Scrooge's fiance breaks off the relationship, 
realizing that Scrooge would always love gold more than her. But, 
while Marley arranged for Scrooge to have a chance to turn around 
before it was too late, it was already too late for Snape. It took 
endangering Lily for him to see the path he was on, but he was 
unable to save her. Dumbledore's initial attitude towards Snape was 
because Snape still had not fully comprehended the enormity of what 
he had done; in order for Snape's repentance to be complete, he 
needed that callousness. Note that, once Snape has set on the path 
to redemption, Dumbledore's attitude towards him turned around. 

lizzyben:

I just want to say one thing re: the DD/Snape relationship. In that 
first meeting, DD didn't give a d*** about Snape's redemption or 
making him see the light or whatever. Snape was simply a Death 
Eater, a potentially useful tool. And he treats him w/customary 
coolness - until Snape begs DD to save Lily Evan's life. Then DD 
responds with "You disgust me." It wasn't Snape's evil that 
disgusted DD. He was perfectly cordial to Voldemort, after all. No, 
it was Snape's sheer human wretchedness & desperation that 
disgusted DD. If Snape had come to DD that day w/his plan for world 
domination, DD would have been perfectly polite. 

Once he'd demanded payment from Snape & made him a double agent, he 
continued to pressure, manipulate, and lie to Snape. And that 
continued until the end of their relationship. DD lied to Snape much 
more than Snape even knew - for a fun game, count all the times DD 
says something to Snape "without looking up" or "with his eyes 
closed." He's lying. He averts eye contact so that Snape can't use 
Legimency on him. Snape, poor trusting soul, believes him. After all 
the debate about whether DD should trust Snape, IMO a better 
question is whether Snape should have trusted DD (I vote no).

Bart:
> As far as Harry goes, I would not call the attitude a callousness. 
Here is the problem, as I see it. Since Harry was not a regular 
Horcrux, Dumbledore had hopes that the Mortysoul could be removed 
from Harry without killing him. But it wasn't until Morty insisted 
on using Harry's blood in his reincarnation that Dumbledore saw how 
it could be done (if Dumbledore WAS callous, there would have been 
no "gleam of triumph" in GOF). 

lizzyben:

So, up till the end of GOF, DD thought Harry would have to be a 
child sacrifice for his cause. He just has to make sure Harry is 
willing to do it - and so the brainwashing begins. He keeps Harry in 
an abusive home so Harry will be totally grateful to escape that 
he's willing to do anything to save his new home. DD poses as a 
benevolent father figure for Harry, winning Harry's love & undying 
loyalty (not that hard for a love-starved child). Then he sends 
Harry to face off against Quirrell/LV as... practice. Oh, yeah, DD 
knew what Quirrel was up to - he set up the entire trap for LV. 
("Keep an eye on Quirrel.") It makes the COS scene all the creepier, 
no? DD rewards Harry for showing absolute loyalty to Him, praises 
him for being a True Gryffindor - cackling all the while about how 
well he has brainwashed this little boy. That's callous.

Bart:
Now, it's clear that, when Morty hit 
him with YAAK, it destroyed the Mortysoul in Harry, and knocked them 
both out and sent them to the inbetween world that Harry saw as 
King's Cross (Morty was the weird baby thingy).  Now, for reasons I 
can guess, but are not at all clear in canon, in order for this 
thing to work, Harry had to believe that he was sacrificing himself,
<snip>
So, even to Snape, Dumbledore had to appear to be a callous 
manipulator when it came to Harry's death, or Harry wouldn't be 
convinced. In other words, if Dumbledore had let Harry know he was 
going to live, paradoxically, Harry would not have lived. 

lizzyben:

"Appear" to be a callous manipulator? That doesn't explain why DD 
couldn't tell *Snape* about Harry's chance at survival. Or why he 
gave Snape the task to inform Harry, knowing there's almost zero 
chance Harry would listen to him. It also doesn't explain why DD 
never told Snape about the Elder Wand (so Snape could get Draco's 
wand) or the Horcruxes (so Snape could tell Harry that Belletrix had 
one). Or why he endangered the *entire Order* w/his illogical "Seven 
Potters" plan instead of just smuggling Harry out under an 
invisibility cloak. Or why DD left cute little gifts/clues instead 
of telling the Trio what the Hallows were. Or why he wanted them to 
get the Hallows at all. Or why he didn't just *give* Hermione the 
Horcrux book before he died. Or why he didn't just *give* Harry the 
Sword of Gryffindor before he died instead of that convoluted plan. 
For all DD's manipulations, Harry won out of sheer luck in the end. 
DD's actions were ruthless, and mostly useless. 

On a meta-level, JKR did this so that Harry can be a Christ-figure, 
yet still live. That's a tricky business. Harry has to believe that 
he is sacrificing himself for the good of humanity, or his sacrifice 
isn't as powerful. Yet he still needs to live so that he can beat LV 
& get a happy ending. So, there needs to be a loophole, but Harry 
can't know about it. That's the real reason.  The convoluted, 
confusing plot-holes stem from the lack of any viable reason within 
the plot for this situation.

> I wish that JKR had been clearer on this point.
> 
> Bart


lizzyben:

I think, on this point, she was pretty clear. In general, DD 
withheld information & manipulated people because he liked the sense 
of power it gave him. At first he dreamed of having complete power 
over millions of Muggles, then he toned it down to settle w/having 
complete power over his devoted followers. But he never really 
changed. As Aberforth said, DD's the master of secrets & lies. DD 
liked seeing people as pawns that he could move around on the chess-
board, not as partners or equal participants. Sometimes he'd 
sacrifice a pawn, and shrug. You could not pay me a million dollars 
to join any organization headed by Dumbledore. In some ways he was 
more evil than Voldemort.


lizzyben