Dumbledore's Plan/Deaths in DH/Catharsis

[pippin_999]

No: HPFGUIDX 177521

 
> lizzyben:
> 
> Oh, that scene was powerful, no doubt. It deeply affected me as well,
> & the imagery was haunting. But was it cathartic, in the sense of
> offering a release of emotion & pain, and a sense of hope & healing?
> No way. If anything, it was the total opposite - there is no hope,
> there is no healing for LV, there is only eternal agony & pain. It's
> the total opposite of an emotional catharsis. 

Pippin:
But it's always that way for the characters of tragedy. They don't escape.
The consolation is that we're not them. It's too late for them, not us.
*We* don't have to be unaware of the agony of the neglected child
until he's grown and leaving packages with ticking metal hearts 
under benches at the train station. 

Lizzyben:
> How does that vision fit in with "don't pity the dead"? Shouldn't we
> pity that damned soul? 

Pippin:
Pitying things we can't help is all about us, not them. 

JKR wants us to pity children *before* they become so damaged
that no one can help them. 

http://www.chlg.org/
 
Lizzyben:
Shouldn't we pity Moaning Myrtle, who never
> finds peace or consolation? Or the Bloody Baron, Nick & the other
> ghosts wandering about in a restless state? Don't all these "unhappy"
> souls contradict the happy, smiling Sirius' assurances that death is
> easy & peaceful?

Pippin:
They're not souls at all. 
A ghost, according to Snape, is the imprint of a "departed soul." 
That is why Nick can't tell Harry anything about death. He is
neither here nor there, only a "pale imitation of life" that he
chose to create before his soul departed.
 
> lizzyben:
> 
> That's my understanding as well, but I don't believe that LV ever had
> a choice - his soul was born in that prison & then punished for
> eternity. He was predestined for damnation. It's a bleak, bleak vision.

Pippin:
How can he have been born in that prison? What's imprisoning
Voldemort is his choice to divide his soul with murder, and then
to make the division irreparable by constructing horcruxes.

We get right inside Voldemort's mind to see that he's not an
instinctive killer, unlike the basilisk. He doesn't kill because of
an uncontrollable hunger or a voice in his head. He does it 
because it feels good. 

And making horcruxes can hardly be an inborn 
trait. If Jo meant to indicate that Voldemort was born in his prison,
why not make him a natural killer like the basilisk, and have that
alone enough to keep his soul from repair?

I'm not sure how you base your assumptions about Jo's beliefs.
I am really uncomfortable with making assumptions about
someone's beliefs based on their denomination. I am an 
official of my synagogue, and I can tell you I've never met
anyone who wanted to join because they've reviewed the 
adopted resolutions of the Union for Reformed Judaism
and want to express their agreement. 

As far as I know, we haven't even got primary source 
information for what denomination JKR actually belongs to,
much less what attracted her to join it. It could be she liked
the choir <g>

> lizzyben:
> 
> Here I will always disagree. And that's where I start to really wonder
> what kind of message JKR is pushing. Cause it's truly one of the most
> disturbing scenes I've ever read in terms of its implied message about
> obedience to authority & the suppression of compassion. If you as a
> reader could feel pity, compassion & sorrow for LV's state, why
> couldn't Harry or Dumbledore? 

Pippin:
They could feel compassion. That's why Harry wants to help, why
Dumbledore sorrows for Severus and for his sister and for Harry. 
But no compassion can help Voldemort. 

They are in a place where there are no more lies, no deceits, 
at least that's what I think all the whiteness and light symbolizes.  
Harry is satisfied with what Dumbledore tells him, and  for
the first time in his life, he isn't tempted to lie to DD himself. He's
not submitting to corrupt authority. He's submitting to the
truth, either the truth as the more advanced soul of Dumbledore
sees it, or the truth as perceived by what Harry projects
as the best and wisest part of himself. 

If deceit is impossible, then they can't win Voldemort's 
confidence by pretending to sympathize with him. He hurts 
at the expression of  honest love. That his skin is gone suggests that
he has rejected even the comfort of touch. What comfort there
is for him seems to lie in being forgotten. 

You see the flayed child as something Voldemort becomes after
he dies. If so that would be a good reason to fear death. But I 
see it as what Voldemort already was, if we could have perceived 
his true self. If he returned to the living world and continued to live
as he had been, he would only be putting himself into a worse
state.  

When the characters say dying is easy, surely they're referring
to the moment of transition between life and death, and not
to  the agony that might be involved in getting a healthy person
to the point of death. Harry already knows that if Voldemort
decides to kill him slowly, it's going to hurt. He's been through
that.  That's not what he's asking Sirius, who fell through the veil
and died almost instantly. 

Pippin