Disappointment Was: Deaths in DH WAS: Re: Dumbledore (but more Snape)

[starview316]

No: HPFGUIDX 177525

I realize this discussion has probably been beaten to death, but I 
did want to add my two cents...


> >Pippin:
> >
> >Of course it was. But then why would it not matter that from that
> >point things unfold quite differently? instead of reacting like a
> >hunted animal, Draco responds politely, nor is this politeness
> >treated as deceptive.
> >
>lealess: 
> They are adults now.  Adults are more in control than children.  I 
> interpret this scene to show that Draco recognizes his better, 
Harry, 
> and nothing more.  Am I wrong?  Probably.

Amy:
Different interpretations are fine, but we're shown throughout HP 
that adults (HP!Adults, anyway) are NOT more in control than 
children. Arthur and Lucius brawl in a bookstore in front of their 
children, Snape and Sirius bait each other whenever they get half a 
chance, even Molly Weasley has her moments of being very childish. If 
there *was* any serious, continued enmity between Draco and Ron (or 
Harry and Draco), I fully believe that we would have seen it. 


<large snip>
> >Lealess:
> >> Please show me the data. What are the virtues of Slytherin House 
> >> that were revealed in Deathly Hallows that would be more
> >> persuasive?
> >
> >Pippin:
> >Friendship. Bravery.
> >Are those not the things that make a great wizard?
> >A great human being?
> >Are they somehow poisoned by association with Harry?
> >Is there one kind of greatness for Gryffindors and another
> >kind for Slytherins?

> lealess:
> I'd say Slytherins want to be recognized and valued for 
achievement.  
> I'd say they want power of one kind or another.  They want to 
attain 
> their goals.  If I were a Slytherin, that's what I would want to be 
> recognized for.  I think Snape got all those things.  I don't think 
> Harry explicitly or implicitly acknowledged them.
> 
> What makes someone a great human being or wizard?  Our views will 
> probably differ on this.  As a Ravenclaw, I would say knowledge and 
> creativity.  A Gryffindor will say friendship and bravery.  I'd say 
> that either comes cheap, because they are not what I value.  A 
> Gryffindor would find me incomprehensible.  That's why I don't 
think 
> Harry understands Snape except through the filter of his own 
values, 
> which he imposes on Snape after death, allowing him to accept Snape 
> as a hero.

Amy:

I think that, in DH, the Snape-Harry storyline was less about Harry 
understanding Snape than it was about Harry seeing Snape as a good 
person. You mentioned that Harry never acknowledges the other things 
we see about Snape, like how he's a successful spy, how brilliant he 
is with Potions, etc, etc. Perhaps it's just that I see it 
differently. But I think Harry has already acknowledged these things 
about Snape: we've had six books of his doing this very thing, and 
it's just not as important in the seventh book because none of these 
things have helped Harry see Snape as anything other than a jerk. 
Which, granted, makes sense: you can't assume that someone is a good 
person just because they're brilliant at what they do. 

Snape taught Harry "Expelliarmus" (which he acknowledged in 
CoS: "Shouldn't have let Snape teach us that one."), which has become 
his signature spell. He's known that Snape was a spy since GoF, and 
actually did acknowledge how good Snape was at that in his final 
speech to Voldemort in DH. Harry spent the whole of HBP raving about 
how brilliant the Prince was, even if he didn't know who the Prince 
was. When the subject is broached after Snape reveals himself in HBP, 
all Harry says is "How do you think I feel about that now?" He 
doesn't renounce his claims of the Prince's brilliance, just his 
claims of the Prince not being the evil person Hermione kept telling 
Harry he was. And I'd find it hard to believe that Harry didn't see 
Snape as a powerful wizard by the end of HBP. Harry has long since 
acknowledged all these things about Snape; it hadn't made him see 
Snape any differently. Why? Because, like you said, just as you don't 
particularly value the things Ravenclaws or Gryffindors would likely 
value, just as a Gryffindor might find you incomprehensible for 
valuing the things a Slytherin would, Harry did not value the things 
about Snape that Snape himself would have valued. 

And Snape, I think, knew by the end that Harry had to know that he 
was at least a trustworthy person for him to buy into Dumbledore's 
plans, and also knew that this would take something more than Harry's 
just knowing that Snape's good at what he does. I have my own 
feelings about the Snape storyline, but I still think that Snape 
valued all the things you said he did. However, I also think he knew 
that HARRY did not -- and to get Harry to trust him, he would have to 
show Harry things about himself that Harry *would* value, that would 
allow him to filter Snape through his own values, and see him as a 
good person. Hence, this is why I think Harry was given all those 
memories about Lily.

We know Harry values courage and love and all that, which is why that 
would stick in his mind as Snape's greatest qualities, which is why 
bravery would be the only thing he'd mention to his son about Snape; 
it's what made him see Snape as something other than a complete jerk. 
I completely disagree, though, that this means Harry didn't 
acknowledge Snape's other qualities. Said qualities are things he 
wouldn't mention to his son, because it wouldn't occur to him to 
reassure Al that he'd still be great at Potions or spells or a 
skillful double agent, if he were a Slytherin. I just don't think 
these things would matter to Harry (or to Al).

<large snip>
>Lealess:
  As for the "Slytherin light," I think Harry, 
> and perhaps JKR, are incapable of acknowledging that ambition is 
not 
> a fatal flaw or that networking is not always insincere or that 
> seeking power is always done for selfish reasons.  I can't fill in 
> events that did not happen to assure that Harry acknowledged these 
> things in DH.
> 

Amy:

Actually, and I'm mostly recalling this from an earlier discussion 
about Slytherin traits appearing in "good" characters, we know that 
the twins are at least as ambitious as Percy. And that Hermione was 
able to do a fair bit of networking to form Dumbledore's Army. Yet 
these aren't automatically the things that would come to mind when 
describing either the twins or Hermione, because again, they aren't 
shown in a way that would make us believe Harry valued these things 
about Fred and George and Hermione. I agree that Slytherin values got 
shafted in these books, most likely because of the Harry-filter. This 
is probably why it comes across as "any time a Slytherin seems to be 
doing something good, they also seem to be acting like a Gryffindor": 
things like Draco pulling Goyle from the fire, or Snape, or Regulus 
sacrificing himself. 

Amy