Suspension of disbelief -Idiots of War

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 182445

--- "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
>
> > bboyminn:
> > 
> > Just from memory of course -
> > 
> > - The Order tracked the movement of known Death Eaters.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I understand that you said from memory, but do you mind 
> referring me to the quote, please? As it is phrased, I am 
> having a hard time qualifying it as doing something to help
> the fight. ...
> 


bboyminn:

First, one would assume you knew the books well enough to 
recognize these mentions.

Second, I'm not limiting myself to DH. Any time after Voldemort
came back that some one did something to assist the good side
and thereby resist the bad side, it counts in my book. In fact, 
considering how oppressive and dangerous the environment had 
become in DH, one would certainly expect less to happen, and 
reasonably expect more of what does happen to be COVERT rather
than overt.

It would be shear suicide to openly oppose the DE's who have
taken over the Ministry and are acting more and more in the
open, and further as they gain control, acting with brutal
impunity. It is one thing to /give/ your life for a cause, but
quite another to /throw it away/. Naturally, in DH people
are being extremely cautious in their words, thoughts, and 
deeds. But outwardly cautious does not circumvent being 
internally outraged and looking for an opportunity to fight.

The DE's are controlling the Ministry, and by extension, the
press and all other sources of reliable news and information.
People are being Imperiused right and left. You really don't
know who you can trust. Truly, digression is the better part
of valor. 

Again, until such time as it is time to openly fight, everyone
actions must be /covert/ because the alternative is prison and/or
death, and consequences of your actions can and do extend 
beyond yourself to your friends and family. 

> bboyminn:
> > - Lupin lived with the Werewolves hoping to persuade them 
> not to join Voldemort.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I was asking about them doing something in DH actually, 
> because we had been told about order fighting in the first 
> war as well. But okay, sure he lived with them and tried. 
> Did it lead to something in DH?
> 

bboyminn:

Does it matter if it leads somewhere? It was a job that had to 
be done, and they had a man to do it. Not every battle is
victorious, not every avenue is productive, but you can't 
know that before the fact. Whatever can be done, must be done,
though not to the point of foolishness or waste. 


> bboyminn:
> > - Members of the Ministry, and wizard world in general, 
> > falsified their relationships with muggle-borns to convince
> > the Ministry that those muggle-borns indeed had magical 
> > ancestry.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Oh? I have to ask for the quote again. ...
> 

bboyminn:

--- DH; CH-13, Am Ed, HB, Pg 255 ---

"Don't pretend, Runcorn," said Mr. Weasley fiercely. "You
tracked down the wizard who faked his family tree, didn't
you."

--- end quote ---


> bboyminn:
> > - Wizards cast spells on their muggle neighbor's homes to 
> > protect them.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> That would have been a nice example, sure. But where are you
> getting this from? I remember Kingsley asking people to do 
> it on forecast, but doing it? 
> 

bboyminn:

This has already been quoted by someone else, but I'll 
repeat it.

--- DH; Ch-22, Am Ed, HB, Pg 440 ---
[Kingsly]
"...we continue to hear truly inspirational stories of 
wizards and witches risking their own safety to protect
Muggle friends and neighbors, often without the Muggle's
knowledge."

> > bboyminn:
> > - They formed an underground radio station to keep the wizard
> > world informed of what was really going on. 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Sure members of the order did.
> 

bboyminn:

And this is exactly what the American and Europeans did
during WWII; 'Voice of America' radio comes to mind. This was
no small or inconsequential effort. Where propaganda and 
misinformation reign, the truth alone is a powerful weapon.

> > bboyminn:
> > - This quote from the broadcast - on the likelihood of the
> > death of Harry - "...it would strike a deadly blow at the 
> > moral of those resisting the new regime...".
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Yes, but again where are they?
>

bboyminn:

Where do you think they are? Where do you think they should
be? As I and others have pointed out repeatedly, we don't 
see this because Harry has no way of seeing or knowing it. 
Further, as is often pointed out, in this type of war, at
this stage in that war, these actions are COVERT, meaning 
unseen.
 
> ><SNIP of the examples I agree with>
> 
> bboyminn:
> > - I suspect the rain in the offices of certain /new/ Ministry 
> > officials was not an accident.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> you are not seriously suggesting that throwing water at the
> people in their offices counts as antiVoldemort resistance?
>  <SNIP of examples I agree with>
> 

bboyminn:

As others have pointed out, harassment of the enemy is a
critical component of a stealthy covert war like this. 


> bboyminn:
> >> - When it all started going down at Hogwarts, the wizard 
> > world rallied and came to the fight.  
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Yes, one and only battle, sure.
> 
>  

bboyminn:

How many all out battles did you want? How many of these
'all out' battles did you expect Harry to see or know about?
Since there are no standing armies, and even if there were,
they would be under the control of the Ministry, who and how
did you imagine they would fight?

Again, even the French Resistance was about intelligence
gathering, harassment, and assistance to the Allies, not
about all-out, head-on battles. That was the best they 
could do until some outside force could be rallied to come
in and actually fight a head-on battle.

When the opportunity arose to fight this head-on battle,
people rallied, until then, their action HAD to remain
underground. That is that nature of this aspect of war.


> bboyminn:
> > But again remember, this is not the story of the adults. 
> > They inevitably remain in the background. Even Neville and
> > the DA to some extent remain in the background, we hear 
> > about them mostly second hand or after the fact. 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Yes I know this is not the story of the adults, what I am 
> saying is that I do not see enough being done even on the 
> background.
> 

bboyminn:

This has been repeatedly explained to you. You don't see it
because Harry doesn't see it, and he doesn't see it because
he is not in a position that allows him to see it. He is 
mostly cut off from the wizard world. 

Again, I'm not sure what it is you expect to see. No one
would ever read this book, and not logically suppose that we
are only going to be allowed to see a hint of the tip of the
iceberg that is occurring off page. 

> 
> bboyminn:
> <SNIP> 
> > So, while we don't really see a lot being done, it is clear
> > that something is going on in the background.
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Even though I disagree with a lot of your examples, I have 
> to concede that **something** was being done **by the members
> of the order**. ...

bboyminn:

First we do have hints that ordinary people are doing what 
they can. Second, by the time we reach DH, while the need has
become greater to do /something/, the ability to do so has
been immensely curtailed. With DE's controlling the Ministry,
and in a sense, holding students hostage at Hogwarts, and
operating more boldly, more openly, and more ruthlessly, any
obvious overt action would be, as I have said, suicide. 

Also, keep in mind that the wizard world is small, likely in
the four digit range, meaning several thousand, but probably
not 10's of thousands. Taking over a country is one thing,
but taking over a small town of several thousand, a town
with limited resources and a dependency on a clearly corrupted
government, that town would be helpless in the beginning. 

Helpless in the beginning, but gradually underground, covert,
harassment would begin and continue until such time as 
it would be possible to organize a direct offensive resistance,
but that would come slow. You don't build an organized army
easily under the watchful, oppressive, and ruthless eye of 
the enemy. 

You seem to have a very skewed view of how easily these things
can be done, and how quickly they can be done. It is easy, 
from your arm chair, to say somebody should have done something,
but when it is your life on the line, or that of your family, 
you would certainly be far less eager to throw those lives 
away on fruitless pointless actions.

Hey...I'm just saying...

Steve/bboyminn