Imperius Curse and Harry (was Re: re:Imperalisk/

[Carol]

No: HPFGUIDX 182456

Potioncat wrote:
> > I was absolutely shocked. I must have read right over this without
taking it in the first time and I don't even recall any discussion
about Harry and the Imperius Curse. But here it is. He uses it several
times in this chapter. There's even a discription of how it feels to
use that power.
 
Ceridwen:
> I don't mind the use of Imperius in such situations, and I wouldn't
mind if Aurors used it to stop a fleeing felon or to secure one
already caught.  I would mind if they used it to force someone into 
implicating themselves, such as a Muggle sting operation might do.
> 
> I can also see uses for the AK outside of battle: if the WW ever had
executions, it seems like a humane way to go about it; and, as in the
case of Snape and Dumbledore, it can be used for euthanasia.
> 
> But I draw the line at Cruciatus.  Its sole intent is to torture.  I
think it must have come from a more violent past when it was all 
right to torture information out of people just to assuage the anger
of the caster, given that Imperius exists. <snip>
> 
> I think the Imperius was glossed over in several of the Cruciatus 
posts right after DH since, if I recall correctly, most people seemed
to agree that it made sense in the context in which it was used.

 Carol responds:

I don't recall Harry's Imperius Curses being glossed over in the
discussions. It's more that they could at least be justified by the
situation, and Harry is using the Imperius humanely (getting Travers
out of the way without hurting him) or out of sheer necessity (getting
the old Goblin, Bogrod, to take them to Bellatrix's vault and then to
open it. Evidently, Confundus would not have worked; Harry had to
command the Goblin to do what he needed him to do, and the Goblin
needed him to be thinking straight. Possibly the first Imperius Curse,
cast while Bogrod is examining the wand, and the second, cast on the
watching Travers, were unnecessary; a Confundus Charm like the ones
used on the guards might have worked. But once Travers starts
following them and Harry makes him come with them, Harry is more or
less trapped into continuing what he started.  Since Travers can't get
in the cart with them (they wouldn't want him there, anyway), another
Imperius Curse (the first one was too weak) is more or less necessary
to get him out of their way, and what better way than to make him
hide? I actually think that Harry was being unusually clever or
quick-thinking here (as he is later with the idea of escaping on the
dragon's back). And Bogrod certainly would not have opened the vault
after their identities had been revealed by the magical waterfall
washing away the enchantments (even Polyjuice) that they'd used to
disguise Hermione and Ron, as well as the Imperius Curse itself (Harry
has already taken off the Invisibility Cloak, revealing himself and
Griphook, which he could not have done, either, had Travers and Bogrod
not been Imperiused--or, at least, Confunded), so unless they want
Bogrod to call out that imposters are trying to break into the
Lestranges' vault, Harry has no choice but to Imperius him yet again.

(It would be interesting to compare and contrast this situation with
Snape's use of the Confundus Charm on Mundungus; Snape did get
Mundungus to do what he wanted him to do and to think that it was his
own idea, but Snape is, of course, more practiced in that sort of
thing than Harry, so he can evidently do what he needs to do with a
mere Confundus Charm without resorting to Imperius.)

At any rate, like Potioncat this time around, I was shocked on my
first reading by Harry's use of an Unforgiveable Curse suggested to
him by the less-than-ethical Griphook, and I was surprised that he
could cast even one, much less four (two each for Travers and Bogrod,
the first two being too weak to last through the whole adventure). It
seemed at the time as if everything we had learned about Unforgiveable
Curses (except "You have to mean them") was being turned on its head.
Of course, there was the precedent of the Aurors being authorized to
use them on DEs, and Travers is a DE perilously close to realizing
that "Bellatrix" isn't Bellatrix (and there's no indication from his
behavior in DH that his loyalty to LV is wavering). And there's also
the precedent of Snape, so I'm sure that part of me was wondering
whether his Unforgiveable Curse, too, was justified by circumstances
and hoping that DD had, indeed, ordered or requested him to use that
AK. It seems that the Imperius Curse is "Unforgiveable" not because he
can't be used for good purposes but because of its potential for
abuse. (It certainly would be dangerous to teach it to Hogwarts
students, for example.)

Harry's use of the Imperius Curse in the Gringotts break-in is very
different, IMO, from his later use of the Cruciatus Curse on amycus
Carrow at Hogwarts. Yes, Carrow, like Travers, is a Death Eater
(albeit a stupid one), but, unlike Travers, he's posing no threat, and
neither Harry nor anyone else is in immediate danger. Carrow is not on
the verge of realizing that Harry is present under the Invisibility
Cloak, nor has he done anything life-threatening. (Spitting on someone
is disgusting and revolting, not to mention insulting and the ultimate
indication of disrespect, but it isn't dangerous.) Nor can the
Cruciatus Curse or any other spell prevent Voldemort's impending arrival. 

So, while the Imperius Curses, a desperation measure when HRH are on
an urgent and unrepeatable mission (if they fail, there's no second
chance to retrieve the Hufflepuff cup, which must be destroyed if
Voldemort is to be made mortal) can be justified, I don't think that
the Cruciatus Curse can be, either in this situation or ever. Its sole
purpose is to cause intense pain, and Harry is using it out of
vengeance, not necessity. It is not defensive magic (neither is the
Imperius Curse, yet Harry manages to use it defensively), and a
Stunning Spell or a Full Body Bind or Incarcerus (complete with gag)
would have served the purpose at least as effectively and more
humanely. (At least Travers and the Imperiused Goblin, Bogrod,
suffered no pain and apparently no lasting consequences from Harry's
rather weak and unsustained Imperius Curses--Or do they? I thought
that Travers showed up again as his usual DE self at the Battle of
Hogwarts, but it turns out to be Yaxley.) Had Harry been using the
Imperius Curse to control them or to make them do something dangerous
to themselves or others, as Barty Jr. used it to make Viktor Krum
Crucio Cedric Diggory, its use would not have been justified, IMO.

One thing I found interesting was the sensation that Harry felt when
he cast the Imperius Curse, "a sensation of tingling warmth that
seemed to flow from his mind, down the sinews and veins connecting him
to the wand and the curse it had just cast" (DH Am. ed. 531). Later,
the narrator refers again to "the sense of heady control that flowed
from brain to wand" (535). It's easy to see how such a curse could
become addictive (Mulciber becomes an Imperius specialist, in contrast
to Bellatrix, who enjoys the more sadistic Cruciatus Curse; the
Imperius Curse, as we know from GoF, causes a sensation of pleasure
similar to what a man feels listening to or watching a Veela.

BTW, I don't quite understand the purpose of Hermione's Shield Charm,
which "[breaks] the flow of enchanted water as it [flies] up the
passageway" (535). Would the water (either by its mere presence or
through some spell) have revealed to the already suspicious Goblins
that imposters using magical concealment had entered the lower depths
of Gringotts? I suppose it would need to do so; otherwise, only Bogrod
 would see the intruders' identities revealed, and he would have been
killed, along with HRH and Griphook, when the car derailed and hit the
wall if not for Hermione's Cushioning Charm. And yet, the Goblins come
down after them, anyway, so the Shield Charm served no purpose that I
can see.

Carol, who wonders what happened to poor Bogrod (and to the
not-so-pitiable Travers), both of whom must have recovered from the
unsustained Imperius Curse