The Sword of Gryffindor

[Carol]

No: HPFGUIDX 182622

Mike wrote:
<snip>
> 
> The Sorting Hat is a magical object and it seems a quite powerful one 
> too. According to canon, it has brains of the four founders in it, 
every year it composes a song that addresses the current climate of 
the WW and then proceeds to magically and unerringly sort all 
incoming Hogwarts students. We are not given the method, but this 
> seems to be a very powerfully magical ability. When I combine the 
> traits and abilities with which the Hat is imbued with the fact that 
> the Sword only appears magically from within it, I don't see why I 
> shouldn't believe that it was the Hat that caused the Sword to 
> appear. Not Dumbledore, not Godric, the Hat and it's own magic.

Carol responds:
Yes, the Hat can compose song lyrics and advise the students to unite,
but it can't move or act (as opposed to think and speak) on its own.
It sits on the shelf unless it is removed and, for example, carried
into the Great Hall and placed on a stool or placed on someone's head.
It does not get to the CoS on its own power; Fawkes carries it there.
Nor does it get to Neville on its own power; Voldemort (of all people)
summons it there. You say that the Sword can't come to a worthy
Gryffindor on its own, but if that's the case, how did it get into the
hat to come to Neville? It had been taken by the very unGryffindorean
Goblin, Griphook (which is how this thread started).

Do we see the hat appearing to rescue anyone else in need, or flying
off the shelf of its own accord? No, we don't. So I think that DD
either knew that the sword could, in certain circumstances, be drawn
from the Sorting Hat by a worthy Gryffindor, or he magically concealed
it there himself, to appear when Harry called for help. That it also
appears to Neville seems to indicate that DD knew about but didn't
place that enchantment on the hat; Godric Gryffindor seems to have
done it. At any rate, I don't think we can ignore Rufus Scrimgeour's
words, quoted upthread, that *the Sword of Gryffindor*, not the
Sorting Hat, "may *present itself* to any worthy Gryffindor" (DH am.
ed. 129). And those words come immediately after Hermione's remark
that Harry pulled the sword out of the Sorting Hat.
> 
Carol earlier:
> > 
> > <snip>
> > every evidence of DD's: Fawkes is his Phoenix and the Sorting Hat
is kept in his office, as is the Sword of Gryffindor afterwards (I
don't know about before because Harry never sees DD's office until
after he kills the Basilisk).
> 
> Mike:
> Actually Harry does visit Dumbledore's office before he ventures
into the CoS. He was sent to DD's office by McGonnigall after the
Justin and NHN petrifications. <snip>
> 
> I like Steve's postulation that the Sword of Gryffindor was lost to 
> time before it gets summoned to Harry in the Chamber. Had it been in 
> DD's office before this, I feel certain that Harry would have
noticed it, after all it sits on the shelf next to the hat from CoS on 
> afterward. It's not something that would be easily overlooked.

Carol responds:

thanks for the correction. However, the sword could already have been
conealed in the Sorting Hat, or DD could simply have arranged before
he left to have Fawkes bring the Sorting Hat to Harry when Harry
entered the Chamber because he knew that the sword would come out of
it--and Harry was going to need that sword.

Alternatively, we can have DD just making meaningless remarks to Harry
(and Ron) as he leaves Hagrid's Hut:

"You will find that I will only have *truly* left the school when none
here are loyal to me" (IOW, Fawkes will come in my stead to help you
if you express loyalty to me). "You will also find that help will
always be given at Hogwarts to those who ask for it" (IOW, DD will
make sure that Harry has the help he needs if he asks for it--and the
help that comes to him is the Sword of Gryffindor. (The Hat is brought
by Fawkes in response to the expression of loyalty.)

Either DD is egging the kids on and giving them false hope, or he has
set up protections for them. And what better protection for a
Gryffindor facing a Basilisk than a Phoenix and the Sword of
Gryffindor, which will present itself to a worthy Gryffindor under
conditions of need and valor? But Fawkes, strong though he is, can
much more easily carry a hat than a sword, and, in any case, if the
hat is enchanted so that only a Gryffindor can pull the sword out of
it, the hat is useless to whatever form of Voldemort might be in the
chamber along with the Basilisk. 
> 
> 
> > Carol:
> > Diary!Tom talks about the protections that DD has sent his
defender (a songbird and an old hat), and his explanation is not
questioned or corrected afterwards,
> 
> Mike:
> Harry was the only one that heard those words and he has no 
motivation or reason to recall them to Dumbledore afterwards for 
possible correction. Conversely, Dumbledore unbidden thanks Harry for
showing him great loyalty, as that's the only thing that would have
summoned Fawkes. There is no place in this conversation for Harry to
question Tom's words or for Dumbledore to correct them. And, Harry's
loyalty to DD caling forth Fawkes was a form of DD providing Fawkes to
Harry. 

Carol responds:
As I've already noted in the quotation above, DD notes the importance
of expressing loyalty to himself as a prerequisite of the protection.
I didn't say that very clearly. I mean, an expression of loyalty to DD
in a time of need or peril is the way to summon Fawkes. DD is, in
essence, instructing Harry to call Fawkes, but given that Fudge and
Lucius Malfoy are standing right there and that he doesn't want them
to know that Harry and Ron are hiding under the Invisibility Cloak, he
can't say so more openly. And since Fawkes belongs to DD and follows
his orders (as we see in OoP), it stands to reason that DD has
instructed him to come to Harry, bringing the Sorting Hat, when Harry
expresses loyalty. Yes, loyalty is the only thing that summons Fawkes,
and DD is telling Harry exactly that before he leaves. (But he hasn't
*truly* left because Fawkes is still there and can carry out the
protections that he has arranged.)

If there were an alternative explanation to DD having arranged these
protections, it would be provided. But DD's words, quoted above, plus
Tom's words ("This is what Dumbledore sends his defender? A songbird
and an old hat!" 316)) are all the explanation Harry or the reader
receives. If we discount those explanations, we're discounting the
only canon we have.

What I want to know is why everyone seems to think that Dumbledore
would leave the school without arranging for Harry's protection when
his words in Hagrid's hut indicate not only that he knows Harry will
attempt to enter the CoS but also that loyalty to himself and asking
for help will provide him with the help he needs--exactly the sort of
help that happens to be required under the circumstances.

Mike: 
> <snip> Whether Fawkes, undoubtedly a very intelligent and magical
animal, knows the Hat is also magically helpful, I can only speculate.
It does seem that magical objects and beings in the Potterverse
recognize other magical things.

Carol:
And Dumbledore knows the magical properties of objects and creatures,
including Phoenixes, Basilisks, and the Sword of Gryffindor (and the
Sorting Hat, if there's an enchantment on it allowing a Gryffindor to
deraw the Sword out of it at need). So Dumbledore arranges for Fawkes,
whose tears will heal Harry if he's bitten by the Basilisk, etc.,
etc., to bring the Sorting Hat from which "a worthy Gryffindor" can
draw the Sword of Gryffindor and kill the Basilisk. Granted, Fawkes is
intelligent, but he's a bird, and however capable he may be of
compassion and of protecting Dumbledore's defenders from Basilisks
(yes, he knows the deadly power of those eyes and seems immune to
them, or he, too, would have been killed, albeit temporarily), but I
don't think he's capable of reason. Dumbledore, however, is regarded
as highly intelligent or as a genius by everyone, including himself.
Surely, he can deduce, as I've said before, that the monster is a
Basilisk, that Harry will attempt to fight it, and that he will need
Fawkes to blind the Basilisk, provide the Sword of Gryffindor via the
Hat, encourage Harry with his song, heal him with his tears if needed,
and carry him out of the Chamber when it's all over? (Now I don't know
whether he anticipated anything along the lines of diary!Tom, much
less Ginny's body being brought into the chamber. He didn't know that
the diary existed, much less that it was a Horcrux. But he knew about
the Basilisk and he knew how to destroy it without Harry's being
killed himself.)

Alternatively, of course, he could leave Harry defenseless (which
would make nonsense of his words in Hagrid's hut) and hope for the
best. "Oh, it'll be all right. Fawkes and the Sorting Hat will figure
something out." I don't think so. It would be irresponsible, if not
outright despicable, for DD to leave Harry, whom he knows will attempt
to enter the CoS and probably succeed, without defenses, simply
relying the magic of the school, which has never, to my knowledge,
protected anyone else, to save him. And rather than *assuming* that
Harry will express loyalty to him, he mentions that he will not have
truly have left the school as long as people there are loyal to him.
That is Harry's cue to summon Fawkes. It stands to reason that DD
would have informed Fawkes, too, and not relied on Fawkes's instincts,
much less on some vague hope that Fawkes might bring Harry something
or other that might bring Harry help if Harry asked for it. Doesn't it
make much more sense for DD to *know* that the sword will come out of
the hat and to *tell* Fawkes to bring it? Otherwise, instead of
protections specifically set up by DD for a specific situation, we
have serendipity and coincidence, with a songbird and an old hat doing
all the thinking, and Dumbledore leaving Harry unprotected despite his
words in Hagrid's hut.
 
> > Carol:
> > Either DD set up those protections or he knew that they would 
come into play. And he made sure that Harry heard his words
> > before he left Hogwarts.
> 
> Mike:
> I'll grant that DD could have been the one to instruct Fawkes to
bring the Hat to a Gryffindor in need. DD could very well have been 
aware of the Hat's additional abilities, if anyone was.

Carol:
Well, good. I'm glad you concede that much. :-)

Geoff:
 But I still go along with Geoff's version, the Hat summoned the
Sword, DD didn't magically hide the Sword in the Hat.

Carol:
What matters to me is that Dumbledore *knew* that the sword would come
out of the hat and arranged for Fawkes to bring the hat to Harry. It
doesn't matter how the sword got there. It could have been magically
and undetectably hidden in the depths of the hat; it could have been
summoned by the hat when it sensed Harry's and Neville's need; it
could have been simply a "conduit," as someone said, through which the
sword could come to "a worthy Gryffindor" (Scrimgeour's words) "under
conditions of need and valor" (DD's words to Snape).

I do think, though I'm only speculating, that Godric Gryffindor
arranged for the Hat and the Sword to work together a thousand years
earlier, and that the powers attributed to the Sword itself in DH are
important. No such powers are attributed to the Sorting Hat by anyone,
ever. It merely Sorts and composes songs and advises the school to
unify in the face of outside enemies and talks to Harry about why it
placed him in Slytherin. It has powers of Legilimency, the "brains" of
the Founders, but I see no evidence that it can act on its own to
summon help. It can't even leave the shelf on its own power. Nor does
it talk unless it's on someone's head. (It wouldn't have called out to
Fawkes as Fawkes left his perch to rescue Harry, "Wait! Take me!") It
*could* have responded to Harry's call for help when Harry put it on,
but that doesn't explain how *Neville*, who did not call for help,
drew the sword from its flaming depths. Maybe the hat read Neville's
thoughts and spoke to him when it was on his head, telling him to draw
out the sword, even though the hat itself was on fire at the time? It
didn't speak to Harry when he put it on and silently called for help
in CoS. The sword merely fell out of it and bonked him on the head.

The only thing that makes sense to me is an enchantment placed by
Godric Gryffindor (I almost put GG, but that sounds like Grindelwald!)
so that they work together under certain circumstances. And
Dumbledore, the most intelligent and knowledgeable Gryffindor in the
books, is much more likely than Fawkes to know about that enchantment,
and to anticipate Harry's need for both songbird and sword. (DD
probably expected Harry to draw out the sword as Neville does later,
rather than having it fall on his head, but the point is, he must have
known that it would have come out of the hat. Nothing else makes any
sense to me.)

Mike: 
> My reading hinges on one simple fact, DD was not available and for 
sure didn't have access to the Sword in DH. Yet the Hat summoned the 
Sword for another Gryffindor in need and without any reasonable way 
for DD to have caused it. The only other option is that the Sword 
itself is the actor. But then why would we need the Hat? And why would
Snape need to bring the Sword to Harry via his doe Patronus? <snip>
 
Carol responds:
Dumbledore wasn't there in CoS, and he probably knew that he wouldn't
be there, so he arranged his protections for Harry ahead of time in
CoS, knowing that the Sword would come out of the hat. Since the hat
can't come on its own, Fawkes had to bring it.

As for DH, he did, of course, have to rely on Snape to deliver the
sword, not being able to make the arrangements himself. Also, Harry
was not at Hogwarts, so he couldn't use the Sorting Hat, and Fawkes
was gone, so Fawkes could not have delivered the Hat in any case. Yes,
the Hat and the Sword together work independently of Dumbledore in DH,
indicating that the enchantment was placed by Gryffindor, not by DD,
and, as Scrimgeour says, it does not belong to any one Gryffindor--not
DD, not Harry, and not Neville after Scrimgeour's death, much less to
Griphook).

I agree that the Sword itself is the actor, but it requires either the
hat as a "conduit" or someone like Snape to make it available under
the necessary conditions (note that Harry alone can't retrieve it
because the need is not obvious and the only "valor" involved is
jumping in a frozen pool. It requires Ron bravely jumping into that
same pool to save Harry and the need to destroy the Horcrux that is
choking Harry before it can be retrieved. How much of that Snape knew
[certainly not that the Horcrux was choking Harry or that the Sword
would be used to destroy it], I don't know, but I do think that he saw
Ron and incorporated him into his plan, making sure that he saw Harry
following the Patronus.)

Anyway, neither the Hat nor the Sword can come on its own. The Hat
does not come down from the shelf or the sword from its case without
some human intervention that activates the magic.

CoS: DD arranges for Fawkes to bring the Sorting Hat to Harry, who
receives the sword after he puts on the hat and asks for help.

DH: Portrait!DD arranges for Snape to deliver the Sword to Harry, who
can only retrieve it under conditions of "need and valor." Snape
arranges for Harry to follow the doe Patronus to the frozen pool in
which he has placed the sword (and, IMO, for Ron to follow). What
would have happened without Ron, I don't know. Snape might have had to
reveal his presence and rescue Harry himself, with the Sword going to
a worthy Slytherin! 

DH again:
Griphook had stolen the Sword of Gryffindor, which magically left him
and somehow appeared in the Sorting Hat when Neville needed it. Were
that hat and the sword working together? Did the Hat summon the Sword
or is the Sword enchanted to appear inside the hat under certain
circumstances? And what made Voldemort summon the Hat at just that
moment? How very convenient for the "worthy Gryffindor" who needed the
Sword to kill Nagini! 
> 
> > > Geoff:
> > > I reiterate what I suggested previously. What made him think
that Harry would go looking for the Chamber - or if he did that he
would succeed where others hadn't over the centuries?
> > 
> > Carol responds:
> > <snip> 
> > And once he learns that Harry, like Voldemort is a Parselmouth and
can therefore find and open the Chamber, as DD himself cannot, and
Harry has been falsely accused of being the Heir of Slytherin and
opening the CoS, and especially after Hermione is Petrified, it's
almost a foregone conclusion that he (and Ron) will attempt it.
> 
> Mike:
> I agree with Carol here. Not only was Dumbledore confident that
Harry would go searching for the entrance to the CoS, Manipulative!DD
probably very much wants Harry to get in there. He is providing clues
and hints aplenty to aid Harry in his quest should he succeed in 
finding and entering the Chamber. And what were the chances that DD 
forgot that Harry was in the hospital wing when he and McG carry the
petrified Colin in?
> 
Carol:
Exactly. Although DD didn't need to be terribly manipulative. Harry
had plenty of incentive (Hermione's Petrification, being accused of
being the Heir of Slytherin himself).

I forgot to mention that Hagrid also expects Harry and Ron to
investigate the mystery ("Follow the spiders!") 
  
Carol responds:
> > <snip>
> >  and if he doesn't expect Harry, as a Parselmouth, to succeed 
where he has failed.
> 
> Mike:
> A quick point here. I'm not sure that DD can't speak Parseltongue.
He sure seems to understand it when the Gaunts speak it. And since Ron 
> was able to mimic Harry to get the CoS open, I find it hard to 
> conceive of it thwarting Dumbledore.

Carol respnds:
I realize that canon can be interpreted either way, but we never see
or hear Dumbledore speaking Parseltongue. He recognizes it when it's
spoken, and he asks Harry whether he understands what Morfin is saying
(as Bob Ogden clearly does not), alerting Harry to the fact that
Morfin is speaking Parseltongue, but how much of the dialogue DD
understands and how much he guesses is not clear. His comments
afterwards give no indication that he understood what Morfin was
saying, and Merope's body language and paleness (she understands
Parseltongue but doesn't actually speak it in the scene) are
sufficient indication of her feelings about Tom Sr. and her fear of
her father knowing about it.

Surely, if Dumbledore could speak Parseltongue, he would have found
and opened the Chamber of Secrets himself instead of hunting
fruitlessly for it, as Professor Binns informs us that he has done,
long before Harry came to the school. He knew that Tom Riddle had
opened it when Riddle himself was just a boy and Harry's *parents*
would not be born for another seventeen years. If he really wanted
*Harry* to open it fifty years later but could have done so himself,
wouldn't he have gone with Harry rather than putting such a burden on
a twelve-year-old?

He can speak *Mermish* and, presumably, Gobbledygook and who knows how
many other languages, but those languages seem to be learnable,
whereas Parseltongue is usually a hereditary trait, passed from
Slytherin to Tom Riddle via the Gaunts and to Harry (who doesn't have
to learn it; he just understands and speaks it) via the soul bit.

Ron, a natural mimic, doesn't really learn Parseltongue. He just hears
Harry say "Open" (having already heard him say the same word back in
CoS), and, after a few tries, succeeds in imitating that one word.
That's very different from Harry's ability to speak to snakes even
before he knew he was a Wizard, or from Tom Riddle, who at age eleven
confesses to Dumbledore that snakes "find him" and that he can talk to
them.   

Mike:
 Therefore, I don't think DD even tried to get into the CoS, both for
purpose of JKR's plot and because he wouldn't have a reason to tempt
fate and do battle with a Basilisk when he was sure that it would
never be called forth again. 

Carol responds:
Of course, JKR's plot requires Harry to be the one to enter the
Chamber and fight the Basilisk. But Moaning Myrtle was killed and the
school was in danger of being closed. Dumbledore knew quite well who
had opened the Chamber (and, IMO, what was in there). And the students
were again in danger in CoS. Do you really think that DD would allow
the school to close, or worse, risk the death of another student, if
he could stop the problem himself by entering the Chamber and killing
the Basilisk?

Fortunately, we don't have to think so badly of Dumbledore. He *did*
try--and fail--to find the Chamber of Secrets, as Professor Binns
informs the Gryffindors:

"'If a long succession of headmasters and headmistresses haven't found
the thing--'

"'But Professor,' piped up Parvati Patil, 'you'd probably have to use
Dark magic to open it--'

"'Just because a wizard *doesn't* use Dark magic doesn't mean he
can't, Miss Pennyfeather,' snapped Professor Binns. 'I repeat, if the
likes of Dumbledore--'

"'But maybe you've got to be related to Slytherin, so Dumbledore
couldn't--' began Dean Thomas, but Professor Binns had had enough.

"'That will do!' he said sharply. "It is a myth! ....'" (Cos Am. ed. 152).

Carol again:

So DD, like all those others, has tried and failed, which suggests
that he can't speak Parseltongue. And since Harry's survival is
crucial to DD's plan, he can't just send Harry to the Basilisk and
hope that he kills him. Better to do it himself if he could. And if he
can't, better make sure that Harry has the weapons and protection that
he needs.


> Mike:
> I'm of two minds on this question. (I know, blimey what a waste of
parchment. <g>) On the one hand, I can't conceive of DD not sussing 
out the monster being a Basilisk. OTOH, would DD chance his champion
being killed this early on in the battle against Voldemort? <snip>
> 
>Carol:
I agree that DD had to know that the monster was a Basilisk *and* that
he didn't want Harry dead. Which is why he supplied Harry with a
Phoenix and the Sword of Gryffindor. And if he could have killed the
Basilisk himself, he would have done so, preserving his champion (whom
he was already starting to love) for other battles.

Carol, wondering whether Fawkes will appear to her as a reward for
defending Dumbledore and hoping it's not an old hat, with or without a
sword