Snape's Messenger Patronus ((was Re: Snape's Dementor lesson

[Zara]

No: HPFGUIDX 182638

> OotP:
> > "Professor Snape requested that Sirius remain 
> > behind, as he needed somebody to remain at headquarters to tell me
> what had happened, for I was due there at any moment" (830).

> Carol responds:
> (As in, "Black, you need to stay here because Dumbledore is coming 
in
> about five minutes and I need someone to tell him what has 
happened.")

zgirnius:
At the moment Snape said to Black, "You need to stay", he obviously 
knew Albus was coming. So far, we are agreed. But where in the 
passage do you see unambiguous proof that Snape, and Snape *only*, 
had prior knowledge (prior to Snape's own arrival at HQ) of Albus's 
plans? Albus is hardly going to give Harry a blow-by-blow of a 
hypothetical in-person conversation between Severus and a group of 
order members *at which he was not even present*. 

Suppose Snape strides down the corridor of 12 GP, towards the door to 
the stairs leading to the kitchen looking for Sirius and anyone else 
he can send after Harry, and Kingsley (who expects Albus to be 
arriving shortly) shouts up at Snape "Albus? Is that you?"

Snape comes in, explains the situation, and, since Kingsley has made 
clear Albus is coming...asks Sirius to stay. I fail to see how this 
is not consistent with Albus's summation of the events.

Maybe others knew too, but Snape *thought of it*, or *thought of a 
logical solution* (Sirius *is* the logical choice to leave behind if 
anyone is to be left - he is a fugitive, unlike the others
) because he is a clear-headed and logical individual, even in a 
crisis. Or, the others may have assumed Snape would tell Albus 
himself. 

After all, if Snape was in the habit of sending Patronus messages to 
Albus and other Order members, why could he not simply do that in 
this case? Why ask Sirius to stay?

> Carol:
> And you're not responding to my other examples. 

zgirnius:
I already did. My original response covers all possible contacts by 
Snape with all possibe Order members, including Albus. Snape could 
have Apparated, answers them all. 
 
> > zgirnius:
> > It suffices to pass the main gate of the castle, which is a lot 
> closer. This was established in HBP, "The Flight of the Prince".

> Carol:
> Be that as it may, Snape
> wouldn't have "a few minutes." 

zgirnius:
How long did it take him to leave Hogwarts airborne in DH? You are 
still insisting he walked.

> Carol responds:
> In DH, Kingsley's Patronus warning that the Ministry has fallen 
seems
> to arrive instantaneously. It gets to the Weasleys' house just 
before
> the Death Eaters do, and they are probably Apparating. 

zgirnius:
I actually considered this scene, as the one most likely to give us 
an answer to the question about speed of patronus communiation. The 
problem is, Kingsley could have sent the warning before the Death 
Eaters Apparated. Maybe he heard them talking about it, making final 
plans about who would do what once they got there, or maybe, he 
saw/heard them working on taking down the magical protections around 
the Burrow and sent the warning, so there was a delay of a few 
minutes. Ottery St. Catchpole is on the South Coast, and Kinglsey was 
in London, so the delay would not have to be long to make flying + 
Apparition the winning method when communicating between Hogwarts and 
London.

> Carol:
> As for
> interactive communication, I imagine that it's like a phone
> conversation. You respond with your own Patronus message. (I'm the
> first to agree that JKR hasn't thought it all out and that
> communication by Phoenix may not be as efficient as Dumbledore 
claims.

zgirnius:
How well this works, depends on whether or not there is a delay.

> Carol:
> As for Snape's ability to fly, obviously JKR didn't want to give 
that
> information away in OoP, but I can't see him flying all the way to
> London

zgirnius:
My susggestion is that he flew from the nearest window to the gate, 
and then Apparated.

> Carol:
> I think we should stay
> with canon within OoP itself or earlier here, and we do see a 
Patronus
> used for communication as early as GoF (DD sends one to Hagrid after
> Krum is Stunned and Mr. Crouch disappears).

zgirnius:
There is no canon about how Snape communicated with the order that 
night. None. There is canon that you interpret as hinting he used a 
Patronus. I have a different interpretation, though I certainly see 
the basis for yours.

> > zgirnius:
> > He does not even say Snape *used* the reliable method (which I 
agree
> a Patronus is). He stated the Order have such a method, not that 
Snape
> used it.
> 
> Carol responds:
> That's true. DD *implies* that Snape used that method. If he had 
said
> so directly, we wouldn't be having this discussion. And if a 
Patronus
> is reliable, as you concede, why on earth wouldn't Snape use it
> (assuming good intentions and loyalty to DD as established in DH)? 

zgirnius:
I already explained it, but am happy to reiterate. Two reasons:
1) If there is any delay at all, flying to the boundary of the Anti-
Apparition ward and then Apparating is at least as fast, and no less 
reliable.
2) Snape is a bit of a control freak, especially when Harry's life is 
at stake. He wants to be there and SEE that he is believed, and 
action is taken.

> Carol:
> Only we don't see any other such means, do we? 

zgirnius:
Well, we do see plenty of Order members Apparate. 

> Carol:
> Or JKR wants to withhold the information for some reason. She
> certainly doesn't want the reader to be aware of Snape's doe 
Patronus.

zgirnius:
Mentioning that Snape sent his Patronus wuold hardly reveal its form. 
Rowling just has to write Harry not asking the question. 

> Carol: 
> And certainly, there's no reason for DD to identify or explain the
> more reliable means of communication, singular or plural, when he 
has
> much more pressing matters to discuss.

zgirnius:
Exactly why I do not think it in any way indicates how Snape 
communicated. The statement is not informing Harry or us about the 
details of how Snape communicated, or the various ways in which other 
Order members might do so. It is a very gentle reminder to Harry that 
going to an Order member, not Umbridge's Floo, was a more reliable 
means of communicating. Much nicer than saying "WHY DID YOU NOT GO TO 
SNAPE?!"

> Carol:
> (The first one was not so urgent, since he fully expected to find
Sirius Black safe in 12 GP, but he did need to inform him that Harry
had received Voldie's vision and believed it to be true. However, I
see no reason not to use a Patronus for both messages.)

zgirnius:
You may not, but I think Snape would have. I do not believe Snape 
would have wanted Sirius to see his Patronus. He might as well have 
just showed it to Harry (which apparently he does not wish to do, 
since in HBP he teaches some other way to deal with Dementors.) After 
all, Harry and Sirius could be expected to spend a good deal of the 
rapidly apporaching summer together. 

> Carol:
> And I'm also arguing, as a separate point, that he used some means 
to
> communicate with DD after DD left Hogwarts in OoP.

zgirnius:
I am not debating this point. It seems evident. My only interest in 
it was to suggest that such meetings could have been in person.

> Carol, who thinks that even if JKR gives us an explanation of how
> Snape communicated, it may not be satisfactory given the gaps and
> inconsistencies in the various books, in this instance, OoP and DH

zgirnius:
I find my solution both satisfactory and consistent with all 
available canon. Also with interviews which have touched upon the 
matter to date, the only one of which I am aware being the Bloomsbury 
chat:

> jenny: How did snape keep his patronus secret from the rest of the 
order?
> J.K. Rowling: He was careful not to use the talking Patronus means 
of communication with them. This was not difficult, as his particular 
job within the Order, ie, as spy, meant that sending a Patronus to 
any of them might have given away his true allegiance.