Snape's Messenger Patronus ((was Re: Snape's Dementor lesson

[Carol]

No: HPFGUIDX 182637

Carol earlier:
> > 
> > Er, no. Snape informs *them* that Dumbledore will be coming to
Order quarters shortly and tells Sirius to wait:
> > 
> > DD tells Harry, "Professor Snape requested that Sirius remain 
> behind, as he needed somebody to remain at headquarters to tell me
what had happened, for I was due there at any moment" (830).
> 
> zgirnius:
> Your quote gives no indication that Snape told the Order Albus was
coming. It just establishes that it was Snape who suggested Sirius 
wait for Albus. It could be he made contact, everyone agreed to go, 
and someone said "But what about Albus, who is coming?" and Snape 
asked Sirius to stay. Or it could be that they all knew Albus was 
coming (since several members were present - perhaps there was a 
preplanned meeting Snape and others knew about). Or it could be Snape
knew because he had received a separate communication *from* Albus
about his intentions. If Snape contacted Albus in any way that 
evening, Albus failed to mention it to Harry, and we have no
indication what form that contact by Snape took.

Carol responds:
Obviously, we're reading the passage differently. To me, it says quite
unambiguously that Snape wanted Sirius to wait for Dumbledore because
*Snape* "needed somebody to remain at headquarters to tell [DD] what
had happened" and *snape* knew that DD was coming to 12 GP shortly.
(As in, "Black, you need to stay here because Dumbledore is coming in
about five minutes and I need someone to tell him what has happened.")
It's definitely Snape who "need[s] somebody to stay." That much is in
the quote itself. And why would Snape "need somebody to stay" if he
didn't know that DD was coming and would need to be informed?

And you're not responding to my other examples. Dumbledore also knew
that Snape had given Umbridge fake Veritaserum *after* DD had left the
school and that Snape had stopped giving Harry Occlumency lessons
because Harry had entered the Pensieve and seen the memory of James
tormenting Severus (page numbers on request)--neither of which DD
could have known unless Snape told him. (Yes, Lupin said that he would
talk to *Snape* about resuming Occlumency lessons, but he didn't say
anything about going to DD about it. Nor do I think that Snape would
have dared to stop the lessons without informing DD that he had done
so and why.)

I don't think that Snape contacted DD on the evening in question, or
if he did, as you say, DD fails to mention it (which could be because
he's concealing his close connection Snape from Harry but is more
likely because it didn't happen). That's not what I'm saying, which is
that DD's knowledge of Snape's doings, in particular the fake
Veritaserum, which DD could not have learned about through Kreacher,
indicate that Snape and DD were communicating with each other in some
manner (probably but not necessarily Patronuses) after Dumbledore left
Hogwarts.
> 
Carol earlier:
> > It's *possible* that Snape left his office, ran all the way to
Hogsmeade, 
> 
> zgirnius:
> It suffices to pass the main gate of the castle, which is a lot 
closer. This was established in HBP, "The Flight of the Prince".

Carol again:

With regard to the main gate of the castle not being in Hogsmeade, I
thought that Hogwarts bordered Hogsmeade and that the main gate led
into Hogsmeade. If it doesn't, it doesn't matter, because what I meant
was, "it's *possible* Snape left his office and ran all the way to the
main gate, as he did in HBP," so we're talking about the same thing
here. And you saw how long that took, pages of Harry chasing Snape.
It's a lot faster, especially when Harry and his friends are in
danger, to send a Patronus.

> zgirnius:
> I disagree. Getting to the gates on foot, at normal walking speed, 
requires very little time. A "few minutes" according to Harry in
"Snape Victorious" (p. 161, bottom), and perhaps even less, seeing as
in "Silver and Opals" it takes approximately a page of dialogue, 
without apparent interruption, from entering the grounds (bottom p. 
251) to meeting Filch in the Entrance Hall (p. 252)

Carol:
In HBP, the chase takes several pages. Be that as it may, Snape
wouldn't have "a few minutes." Once he realizes that Harry may have
somehow left the grounds to get to the MoM, every second counts.
Again, agree to disagree. We're not going to convince each other,
apparently. And, as I said, DD indicates that Snape communicated with
the Order using the usual method, which we find out in HBP is Patronuses.

zgirnius:
 
> How long does it take a Patronus to travel from Northern Scotland to
London? <snip> How interactive is Patronus communication, also? We see
it come and deliver a fixed message, and that is all, leaving the
sender dependent on the recipicent to respond. In an emergency, *being
there* to make sure people are reacting as one would wish, might be
worth a few minutes, especially ones that can be cut short by, say,
running. Or flying, an exotic possibility that may well have been open
to Snape. <g>

Carol responds:
In DH, Kingsley's Patronus warning that the Ministry has fallen seems
to arrive instantaneously. It gets to the Weasleys' house just before
the Death Eaters do, and they are probably Apparating. As for
interactive communication, I imagine that it's like a phone
conversation. You respond with your own Patronus message. (I'm the
first to agree that JKR hasn't thought it all out and that
communication by Phoenix may not be as efficient as Dumbledore claims.
I'm also the first to admit that the books aren't always consistent
with each other and that JKR doesn't always check her own facts. She
certainly hasn't answered all our questions about communication by
Patronus. I'm only going by what canon seems to indicate, and that is,
that Snape communicated with the Order by Patronus.)

As for Snape's ability to fly, obviously JKR didn't want to give that
information away in OoP, but I can't see him flying all the way to
London when a Patronus is, apparently, instantaneous, and he needs to
be at Hogwarts to search the Forbidden Forest. I think we should stay
with canon within OoP itself or earlier here, and we do see a Patronus
used for communication as early as GoF (DD sends one to Hagrid after
Krum is Stunned and Mr. Crouch disappears).
> 
Carol:
> > DD, of course, suggests that he has done so, informing Harry that
the Order members have more reliable means of communication than
Umbridge's fireplace (and we later see other Order members using
Patronuses to communicate).
> 
> zgirnius:
> He does not even say Snape *used* the reliable method (which I agree
a Patronus is). He stated the Order have such a method, not that Snape
used it.

Carol responds:
That's true. DD *implies* that Snape used that method. If he had said
so directly, we wouldn't be having this discussion. And if a Patronus
is reliable, as you concede, why on earth wouldn't Snape use it
(assuming good intentions and loyalty to DD as established in DH)? 

zgirnius:
 Also, means in that statement can denote a plural - more than one
such means. 

Carol:
Only we don't see any other such means, do we? The Order communicates
by Patronus, except on those occasions when they pop into Order HQ in
person. Snape, of course, communicates with DD in person when DD is at
Hogwarts. My question is how he communicates with him, as he obviously
does (see Veritaserum example above) when DD is not at Hogwarts. I'm
raising a Patronus as the most obvious (and reliable) means, but
perhaps there are others. I suggested the fireplace in DD's office as
one possibility. Unfortunately, there's no canon to support that idea.
There is, however, canon to show that Phineas Nigellus can leave DD's
office and go to his portrait in 12 GP and he does so in OoP itself.
And there's canon in both HBP (quotes on request) and DH (quotes not
necessary, I hope!) to show that Phineas Nigellus is, so to speak, a
Snape fan and would happily run errands for him. But I don't think
that's what DD is referring to since the Order in general don't seem
to use that method.

zgirnius:
I don't see why Albus would need to hide this method from Harry in any
case, regardless of what Snape did or did not use, because he has used
a Patronus in front of Harry in the past. It must be a habit of his,
never to make simple declarative statements of fact when talking to
Harry, unless he absolutely, totally *must*.

Carol:
Or JKR wants to withhold the information for some reason. She
certainly doesn't want the reader to be aware of Snape's doe Patronus.
And certainly, there's no reason for DD to identify or explain the
more reliable means of communication, singular or plural, when he has
much more pressing matters to discuss.
> 
> > Carol:
> > Another possibility, which makes more sense than taking the time
to run to Hogsmeade to Apparate, is Dumbledore's fireplace. 
> 
> zgirnius:
> I have already pointed out the flaw in your characterization of 
Apparition as a slow and cumbersome method. ,snip>

Carol:
You call it a flaw, but that's your opinion, not mine. May I refer you
to pages 600-602 of the HBP American edition, in which Snape runs
rather than flying (perhaps he didn't know how to do that yet?) and it
takes several minutes to get from the entrance hall to the main gate,
even though, unlike Harry, he's not being hindered by Death Eaters?
(I'm not counting the tun from the tower to the entrance hall, which
would be longer than the run from Snape's dungeon office or Umbridge's
office to the entrance hall.)

I didn't say that Apparition itself was "a slow and cumbersome
method." I didn't even use those words, IIRC. Of course, Apparition
takes seconds, in itself. It's the run through the castle and across
the Hogwarts grounds that's time-consuming. And even a minute or two
is two long if the message is urgent, as Snape's second message was.
(The first one was not so urgent, since he fully expected to find
Sirius Black safe in 12 GP, but he did need to inform him that Harry
had received Voldie's vision and believed it to be true. However, I
see no reason not to use a Patronus for both messages.)

zgirnius:
 However, Flooing from Albus's office is certainly another option. And
he could have used it not merely to speak into the fire, but to arrive
bodily. <snip>

Carol responds:
I agree. The only problem is, there's no indication in the books that
he used that method. It's possible, only possible, that DD's office
was watched by the MoM, since Umbridge says that hers was the only
fireplace that wasn't watched, and it's also possible, only possible,
that Snape temporarily couldn't get into the office because it was
blocked to everyone, even loyal staff members, other than the rightful
occupant, Dumbledore. If either is the case, then he couldn't or
wouldn't have used DD's fireplace. Nevertheless, since I suggested it,
I do think it would be a better option than an exhange of Patronuses
because it would allow fact-to-face communication.

I'm not arguing that a face-to-face meeting wouldn't have been
preferable. I'm arguing that that doesn't seem to be what happened.
The evidence, such as it is, is that Snape used a Patronus to
communicate with the Order on the night in question (did I brilliantly
type "Phoenix" by mistake somewhere upthread? I did that just now).
And I'm also arguing, as a separate point, that he used some means to
communicate with DD after DD left Hogwarts in OoP. DD knew things that
only Snape could have told him, the fake Veritaserum being the best
example.

Carol, who thinks that even if JKR gives us an explanation of how
Snape communicated, it may not be satisfactory given the gaps and
inconsistencies in the various books, in this instance, OoP and DH