Harry's DADA skill was Re: Albus and Gellert/Voldemort's Power

[Beatrice23]

No: HPFGUIDX 182691

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Beatrice23" <beatrice23 at ...> 
wrote:
>
> *Snip* (or perhaps more accurately *snipe*
> >
> > Carol, who doesn't understand your objection to her argument since
> you
> > agree that the Boggart sucks Harry's happiness as effectively as a
> > real Dementor without placing his soul in jeopardy
>
> Beatrice: ROTFLMOA. Is this your real argument?
>
> "'Thank you very much, Professor Umbridge, that was most
> illuminating,' he said bowing to her....(OotP 214)
> >
>
>Carol responds:

>Actually, my "real argument" can be found upthread, complete with
>extensive canon citations.

>And, FWIW, your logic escapes me as does the relevance of your 
remark.
>As for courtesy . . .

>Carol, who sees nothing to laugh about

Beatrice Apologizes:  First, it pains me to list the above response, 
but I do owe you an apology Carol.  I misread your signature on the 
above post and responded with a rude post.  Please accept my sincere 
apology.  This is not an excuse, but I read the end of your post 
under odd circumstances and responded to it under those same 
conditions and I hope you know that even as we disagree (and we 
frequently do) that I respect your opinions and enjoy the ensuing 
discussions.

Okay, so now I will contribute something more intelligent to the 
discussion:

>Alla:

>I am not Beatrice, but since I find Carol's argument about Boggart
>quite weak myself, I am going to try and explain why and maybe my
>reasoning is the same as Beatrice or maybe not.

>I believe that fact that Harry had a training with Boggart who
>immitates the Real Dementor has no bearing whatsoever on Harry's
>ability to cast the patronus.

>Harry had lessons, sure he did, as Beatrice had showed IMO we see at
>least hints that other kids have private lessons with other teachers.

>But what we do not see anywhere in my opinion is ANY kid having
>lessons with Boggart!Dementor and being able to do so. In fact, Lupin
says that it is extraordinary achievement for thirteen year old, mind
you he thinks it is extraordinary that Harry managed to do it even
with the Boggart!Dementor, doesn't he?

>So this is the part of the argument I find ridiculous - how exactly
the fact that Harry casts it upon the Boggart!Dementor somehow
downplays his accomplishment. Boggart Dementor immitates all the
effects of real Dementor after all, except being able to suck out the
happiness and Harry manages fine eventually.

Beatrice: I agree and another thought occurred to me.  In the 
majority of the other circumstances, Umbridge's patronus in 
particular, the patronus is cast merely to protect the caster and 
others from the affects of the presence of Dementors.  For all we 
know, Umbridge casts her patronus BEFORE the dementor enters the room 
or even gets anywhere near her.  This may also be the case for many 
other people who deal with magical law enforcement.  Even the talking 
patronus (or would it be patroni?) are not cast under the affects of 
dementors in the immediate area.  Continuing with Umbridge for a 
moment: unlike Harry, she has advanced notice that the dementors 
are / will be present.  Harry, on the other hand, casts his Dementor  
under extraordinary circumstances (okay – thankfully he has practice 
with some really good controls).  

In PoA, OotP, and DH, Harry is attacked, not simply (although I know 
that it is hardly benign, but there is a difference) experiencing the 
affect of having a dementor near him.  Being attacked is something 
that even Fudge sees as unusual (PoA).  And he is repeatedly 
attacked, even prisoners in  Azakaban aren't necessarily assaulted in 
the way that Harry is (unless they are sentenced to be kissed – even 
then it only happens once) rather prisoners are continually subjected 
to the affects of the Dementors without being  surprised to find them 
outside a muggle park, on Hogwarts grounds, etc. (where usually one 
only encounters them in Azkaban or under ministry arrest (at least 
until LV comes back out in the open in HBP).  
 

Alla
> Potioncat:
> But it had all the bearing in the world! If Boggarts could be made
to
> create that same effect for all the kids, then it could have been
> used for all of them. It was only Harry who reacted the same way to
> his Boggart as he did to a Dementor. In fact, Harry reacted more
> strongly to Dementors than other kids did.

>Alla:

>Look, do you agree that Boggart is like real Dementor in all effects
>it has on the human being, except sucking the soul?

>Where do we see any other kid casting Patronus on real Dementor when
>he is Harry's age. That's what I am trying to say is that I find it
>bizarre that the fact that Harry IS able to do so somehow is being
>used against him.


Alla:

I see no proof that any thirteen year old COULD learn to do that,
that's my point. Sure, Hary did not manage from the first try, my
point is that I do not see anybody else who could have managed to do
so ON THE REAL DEMENTOR, since as far as I am concerned Boggart is
the same thing in its effects.

> > Alla:
> > Harry had lessons, sure he did, as Beatrice had showed IMO we see
> at
> > least hints that other kids have private lessons with other
> teachers.
>
> Potioncat:
> Sure, and that's a good point. Harry is like most other kids.
James,
> Sirius, Severus and Hermione, however, taught themselves magic
beyond
> their years.
>

Beatrice:  Well, true but it also sounds like James, et al had each 
other.  In fact, it was generally accepted that Peter could never 
have become an Animangus without James and Sirius.  Even Snape seemed 
to be hanging out with a dark crowd.  All of them may have been 
working together to create spells / curses to use as weapons.  But 
don't forget Harry's DADA lessons in his fifth year.  Not only does 
he teach a lot of different and difficult spells, he even teaches 
those spells to older more experienced students, some of whom are 
widely acknowledged to be pretty inventive themselves (the Weasley 
twins, Ernie MacMillian, Cho, Hermione, etc.).  Again, I remind you 
that I am not saying that Harry is brilliant, but I think that his 
accomplishments do occasionally outshine his "natural abilities."  

Alla:

I never argued that Harry is the same as Hermione or Dumbledore. But
I maintain that Patronus is a magic beyond his years, but of course
he is not in Dumbledore or Hermione's league.

My objection is to denying what Harry achieved, when his Es somehow
do not mean much, when his Patronus does not mean much, etc, etc.

JMO,

Beatrice: My point exactly.  I also think that his OWL exams speak 
pretty well of his skills as a wizard.  Even where her performs 
poorly, it is under difficult circumstances (Hagrid's attack, 
LV's "vision," and the ridiculous subject of Divination) .  Also in 
Harry's defense here, the Weasley twins were generally acknowledged 
to be pretty poor students and yet no one would deny that they are 
VERY talented.  

Beatrice: Contrite and back to a real discussion.