Griphook and Harry's deal WAS :Re: CHAPDISC: DH25, Shell Cottage

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 184007

Debbie:
<SNIP>
I, for one, do not
believe goblin notions of ownership are wrong; they are different,
reflecting cultural norms in goblin society -- in which craftsmanship 
may
have been honored and revered above all else -- before they were 
subjugated
and marginalized by the dominant wizard culture and shunted aside into
professions for which wizards have no taste or aptitude.<SNIP>


Alla:

Definitely. I do not believe that they are wrong in itself either in 
any sense, shape or form. What I do believe is wrong is that I think 
goblins are not being honest with the wizards when they trade and do 
not give them the full explanation, you know? Or at least that is the 
sense I got from the tidbits of info we received about goblins. If 
goblins will tell the wizards when sell them their products that in a 
sense they are just renting the products, and if wizards are okay 
with it, sure, I have no problem with it.

Now if you ask me, I would **never** ever, ever agreed to such a 
deal. It just seems so incredibly unfair to me that I will pay my 
hard earned money for something that I expect to own forever and pass 
to somebody in my family and instead when I die somebody will show up 
and say Ooops, now give it to me. 

Again, I know that if we for example rent an apartment, that is in a 
sense a similar thing, but the key difference I see is that when I 
rent an apartment, I do not go into this apartment with the 
expectation that I own this apartment and if I own it, I do not 
expect somebody to take it away from me when I die and my mortgage is 
paid off and I am leaving it to somebody else.

So, anyways back to Potterland, yes what Goblins do, just seems 
incredibly unfair to me and that is why, it is actually quite funny, 
Harry's deal with Griphook was the situation that I was mostly mad at 
Harry in this book. I am quite okay with him doing all other stuff 
people are mad at him, but this just seems so unfair and dishonest 
that I am ready to shake Harry when he so easily plans to take 
advantage of Griphook. Now if Harry knew that Griphook is planning to 
take advantage of him as well, that would be different story. I would 
say Go Harry Go and cheer him up. But he does not and for that I want 
to slap him, a lot.

If you ask me what I would suggest he should have done, I would say 
he just should have been honest. I mean not honest in a sense that I 
believe that Griphook would have given up the sword, if only Harry 
would have told him that it will help in Voldemort's demise. Oh no, I 
am not buying for a second that Griphook would have agreed to that. I 
think instead of bargaining Harry should have given Griphook this as 
a fact. That he **is** taking the sword till he needs it to fight 
Voldemort, that he is NOT making any promises whatsoever as to when 
he will give him the sword back. That he believes that this is the 
rare situation when the ends indeed justify the means and IF Griphook 
wants, he can take Harry word that when and only when Harry's job is 
done, he will get the sword back.

The difference between mine and Montavilla's suggestions seems to be 
that I am not suggesting the negotiations with Griphook, more like 
take it or leave it kind of thing. And yes, I think if Griphook 
refused Harry should have continued looking for another Goblin. I 
mean, come now, Bill at least has courteous relationship with them, I 
think it is not out of realm of possibility to imagine that he could 
have find a goblin who would have helped Harry without demanding a 
sword back right now.

Having said all that,  I am not saying that story suffers because it 
was not told as I so desire, I think when I get so involved, it is 
when story is in its best. I think Harry was not on his best behavior 
here, that's all. But I totally understand why JKR wanted it to be 
that way IMO.

I wonder again as to how easily JKR can change my thoughts of the 
characters so very easily, with just few brushes of her pen. Before 
this book came out, I considered Goblins to be so very cool, 
oppressed and marginalized by wizards and I so wanted to learn more 
about them, just as you said.

Do you know that now when I think about them, I think about them as 
liars first and foremost? I mean based on the goblin of course. No I 
do not like them anymore, I still think that wizards should leave 
them alone, but stop trading with them if they do not explain what 
the deal is and see what they say then.

JMO,
Alla