CHAPDISC: DH26, Gringotts

[pippin_999]

No: HPFGUIDX 184090

 
> Questions:
> 
> 2. Why do the trio align themselves with Griphook?  Why not ask for
> Bill's help?  Would Bill help them?  Why doesn't Harry even consider
> this idea?

Pippin:
Harry says that only a goblin could help. He is probably remembering
what Griphook once told him, that if anybody but a Gringotts goblin
tried to open  a vault, the thief would be drawn inside and trapped there.

In addition, IMO, Griphook's initial response to Harry was honest:
there was  no chance of getting away with it, it would be against his
code to reveal Gringotts secrets, and the Gringotts goblins would
regard it as base treachery. I think JKR ran a conversation between
Harry and Bill through her mind, and decided it wouldn't move the
story forward to have Bill repeat what Griphook had told Harry already.

It's not a given that Bill would have thought helping Harry was a good
idea. What if it led to another goblin rebellion? That could be worse
than Voldemort.

> 
> 4. Why does Ollivander make Luna and Luna alone a new wand?  Why not
> make new wands for all of the people who were incarcerated with him?
> Why not make new wands for as many people as possible who have been
> victimized as he was by Death Eaters?  Why doesn't Ollivander think
> about arming the enemies of his enemy?  What does this say about his
> character?

Pippin:
I don't think unicorn hair, dragon heartstring, or phoenix feathers
would be easily available under the current regime. It also appears
that not every tree is suitable for wand wood, so those are probably
being watched as well. I think it's touching that Ollivander thought
first of the girl who had helped him. Since he's been cooped up in
that dungeon since before the coup, he may not even know about the
hordes of wandless.

> 
> 5. Is Harry's plan to withhold the Sword of Gryffindor from Griphook
> a double-cross?  Should Harry have explained their need of the sword
> (withholding certain details of course) and do something to ensure
> that Griphook would allow them to use it for a while?  Were you
> comfortable with Harry's decision?  Or did you agree with Hermione?

Pippin:
I was pretty sure Harry's decision would be a disaster, though I don't
know whether explaining things would have made a difference. I don't
think Griphook ever had a real plan to get the Trio out of the
dungeon, and probably wouldn't have been able to come up with one if
he'd tried. It would be like three teenagers trying to rob Fort Knox.
Even with inside help it's highly unlikely they could get away with it.

If it was up to me, I think I'd have tried to con one of Bella's
family into getting the cup out rather than trying to smuggle the Trio
in. But that might not have been as much fun to read about.

I enjoy the irony that Harry, our supposed upholder of Western values,
is the one planning to be what they used to call, in my benighted
youth, an Indian giver, while Griphook, the non-human, cons Harry into
shaking on  a one-sided deal any robber baron would be proud of. 

> 
> 7. Hermione breaks character as Bellatrix when she says "good
> morning" to Tom, the Leaky Cauldron barman.  Of the three, who is
the best actor?  Is Hermione the best choice to play Bellatrix?  Would
> Harry or Ron have done a better job with her character?

Pippin:
Polyjuice doesn't change the way you move or gesture. I think Ron
would have felt awkward in the body of a grown woman, and  not able to
disguise this without a lot of practice.  Hermione could have used
some rehearsals though. She *can* act convincingly when her heart is
in it. Remember how she told McGonagall that challenging the troll had
been her idea? And how coolly she robbed Snape's office in CoS? I
think she just trusted too much in the polyjuice, and forgot that
she'd need to act like Bella as well as look like her.

> 
> 8. How did you feel about the changes to Diagon Alley?  Were you
> surprised by any of the changes to the Wizarding World?

Pippin:
I thought the wandless were a metaphor for the homeless in the real
world. But I remembered that there have always been wandless in the
WW: goblins, werewolves, the mentally unstable and the unjustly
expelled. In an awful, unacceptable way, Voldemort made  the problems
of the wandless  visible. 

> 
> 9. Ron is forced to stun a man who attempts to assault
> Bellatrix/Hermione.  Did you agree with his decision?  Does he have
a choice?  How does he feel about the situation?

Pippin:
You can't make an omelet without breaking eggs. Griphook had warned
them they might have to attack wizards to get into the vaults. 

> 
> 10. There has been a lot of debate about Harry's use of unforgivable
> curses.  Here we have the first time he uses one as he performs the
> Imperius Curse on Bogrod and Travers.  Why doesn't he confound them
> as he does the security guard?  Is it really necessary to use this
> curse?  Is this more effective than a Confundus Charm?  Does Harry's
> feeling that he did not perform a very strong curse make it more
> acceptable that he uses this tactic?

Pippin:
Harry's got a lot worse things to be concerned about than a life
sentence in Azkaban. And that's mostly the way Imperius and Crucio
have been presented to him: not as uniquely evil actions but simply
ones that will get you into a lot of trouble if you're caught. Only
the act of murder is consistently called evil in itself.


The victims of Imperius and Cruciatus *may* suffer dreadful
consequences; Crouch and the Longbottoms were driven insane. But
Fake!Moody used Imperius on Harry and scads of his classmates with no
harmful effects, and Harry himself has suffered the cruciatus curse
several times. Though each time he thought he would die or go mad from
the pain, he didn't. 

> 
> 11. How did you feel about the description of the dragon and the
> cruel way in which it is kept?  Did this make you feel any different
> about Gringotts or goblins?  Harry thought he saw dragon fire when
he first entered Gringotts in SS/PS.  Are there more dragons? Or is
this the only one?

Pippin:
Harry didn't enter that section of the vaults, so either there are
other dragons, the vaults move around, or the dragon isn't always in
the same place. This being the WW, anything is possible.

I was sorry for the dragon. I don't know that the goblins are entirely
to blame for its condition, though. I doubt it was captured and
brought to Gringotts without wizard help. In any case, Bella and
others with dragon-guarded vaults must know about the dragon, so they
are complicit at least. 


> 12. As they enter the vault, they realize that the treasure has been
> charmed or cursed to burn their flesh and multiply.  Should Griphook
> have anticipated this little snag?  Why aren't they more prepared
for this?  Was Griphook's lapse intentional?

Pippin:
Since the curses have  names in Latin not Gobbledegook, they are
probably wizard enchantments, and Griphook didn't know about them. I
doubt his plan included getting burnt and smothered. A little present
from Bella, perhaps, just in case the goblins got any ideas about
repossessing the treasures in her vault. 

I think he did expect that the goblins would show up and trap Harry
and the others, and that he planned to excuse himself by claiming to
have been under the Imperius curse. He is the one who suggests using it. 

Griphook could have denounced the Trio as imposters the moment they'd
entered the bank of course, and seized the sword then. But he kept to
the letter of his bargain with Harry, showing the same kind of
fractured honor that Harry did in promising himself that he'd deliver
the sword some day (if he wasn't killed or robbed of it in the
meantime, that is, a possibility Harry conveniently didn't consider.) 

> 
> 13. How do you feel about Griphook's treatment of Harry after Harry
> pulls him from the crushing, burning weight of the treasure?
> Griphook grabs the sword, and in the process the cup is almost lost.
> Did Griphook really intend for Harry to obtain anything from the
> vault? Griphook is accepted without question into the hoard of
> approaching goblins.  What do you make of this?

Pippin:
Griphook never promised to help Harry obtain anything from the vault. 
He said, carefully, that if there were any wizard he could believe
didn't want something for personal gain, it would be Harry. But he
didn't quite say he believed Harry. I think when Harry said, "Get it!"
he knew for sure that Harry had never really intended to hand over the
sword. Griphook evidently doesn't feel any bond with Harry for saving
him from the treasure, but if it was enchanted by wizards, not
goblins, then he may feel that he didn't owe anything to a wizard for
saving him from it. 

> 
> 14. Harry, Ron, and Hermione escape on the dragon's back in truly
> spectacular fashion.  How did you feel about the dragon's escape?
> How do you feel about Gringotts and goblins in general after Harry's
> experiences?

Pippin:
There was no credible way for them to escape from the vaults. Only an
incredible escape would do. <g> I'd seen an illustration of the Trio
mounted on a dragon's back, so I knew something was coming. As far as
goblins in general, I've already posted a lot about this, but I'll
just say here that while I'd be suspicious of a goblin who offered to
sell me an ancient and valuable artifact, I'd be very foolish not to
be equally suspicious of a human in such circumstances. Both humans
and goblins can lose their heads where treasure is concerned.

Pippin, thanking Beatrice for the excellent summary and questions