CHAPDISC: DH26, Gringotts

[Mike]

No: HPFGUIDX 184105

Thanks to Beatrice for an excellent review and some even more 
excellent, thought-provoking questions. BTW, did y'all realize that 
this chapter provided the answer to two of our per-DH cover art 
questions? The Bloomsbury chidren's edition and the deluxe editions 
covers come from this chapter. :-)

> Questions:
> 
> 2. Why do the trio align themselves with Griphook?  Why not ask
> for Bill's help?  Would Bill help them?  Why doesn't Harry even
> consider this idea?

>> SSSusan:
> I wish I knew the answer to this. I don't know if it's because
they thought Bill would try to dissuade them or would be reluctant
to help?  <snip>
Or whether they thought that Bill simply wouldn't know as much as
the goblins? I really don't know.

>> Montavilla47:
> I have no idea why Harry doesn't ask Bill for help. It seems really
stupid not to. Bill WORKS for Gringotts. <snip>
And he's a CURSEBREAKER!

Mike:
I see three reasons why Harry picked Griphook and not Bill. 

1st. Harry remembered Griphook and sees him as a Gringotts goblin, 
the ultimate insider. You have to consider Harry's mindset. He's 
looking at Gringotts as a goblin stronghold, and who better to help 
him than a goblin? Plus, there's the point that Pippin brought up...

> Pippin:
> Harry says that only a goblin could help. He is probably
> remembering what Griphook once told him, that if anybody but a
> Gringotts goblin tried to open  a vault, the thief would be drawn
> inside and trapped there.

Mike:
2nd. Bill has only worked at Gringotts for 2+ years, and that plus is 
a little iffy, considering what has gone on this last year. He's just 
not going to know as much about Gringotts. And Bill has gone into 
hiding himself. He's not working at Gringotts for now. Had Harry 
thought that Bill was the better choice, he would have been forced to 
change his plans. And Pippin has one more about Bill...

> Pippin:
> It's not a given that Bill would have thought helping Harry was
> a good idea. What if it led to another goblin rebellion? 

Mike:
3rd. Harry has got it in his head that he can't let anyone from the 
order in on this Horcrux hunt. He even tells Bill that he can't tell 
him what they're planning in the previous chapter. Hey, I didn't say 
they were *good* reasons, just reasons.

Harry's holding to Dumbledore's lamebrained plan, despite the fact 
that he's been questioning Dumbledore and his plan for most of the 
year. He's already decided to eschew DD's desire to block out 
Voldemort (as Hermione reminds him back in 12 GP) and instead to use 
this insight to his advantage. Why he doesn't question Dumbledore's 
request that he keep this whole Horcrux hunt just between himself, 
Ron and Hermione; I am completely dumbfounded. Why not use BOTH 
Griphook and Bill? Ugh! 

or as Montavilla47 put it:
"Sorry. That thumping sound was my head hitting the desk."


> 5. Is Harry's plan to withhold the Sword of Gryffindor from
> Griphook a double-cross?  Should Harry have explained their need
> of the sword (withholding certain details of course) and do
> something to ensure that Griphook would allow them to use it for
> a while?  Were you comfortable with Harry's decision?  Or did you
> agree with Hermione?

Mike:
Pardon me while I take a slight tangent. Why on earth would Harry 
even consider that Godric Gryffindor could have "stolen" that sword? 
Does he really think it possible that the sword used to belong to 
Ragnuk the First, and that Godric scratched his own name into a 
goblin made sword. Huh? Isn't this whole thing about goblin 
metallurgical and magical skills; and Harry is wondering if Godric 
could have done to that sword what he just did to a rock for Dobby's 
headstone? And what happened to that logic loving Hermione we met in 
PS/SS? What was with her answer to Harry's question?

Now, as for Beatrice's question; Irrespective of whether the plan 
itself was the best choice, I think this approach with the sword was 
the best way to implement that plan. I understand Harry's reluctance 
to tell the goblin any more than absolutely necessary. Ethically, 
this is what we call a quibble, and I don't have a big problem with 
it. Mostly for the reasons that I don't believe Griphook is telling 
the truth about the sword's history and I don't give the goblin credo 
on ownership much acceptance as reasonable.

Even at this point of the story, I doubted the goblin would have 
accepted a caveat of "you'll get it when we're done needing it". Of 
course, that skepticism was borne out in the end.



> 8. How did you feel about the changes to Diagon Alley?  Were you
> surprised by any of the changes to the Wizarding World?

Mike:
Along with the picture we got in HBP, these changes in Diagon Alley 
struck me the hardest. One of my favorite scenes in my favorite book, 
PoA, was Harry getting two "Dursley free" weeks to stroll around that 
fascinating place called Diagon Alley. I loved it. All those 
wonderful wizardly shops, the atmosphere, drew me into this magical 
world that JKR made. To see what had become of it made me sad. I 
think it was at this point that I really wanted the story to be over. 
I wanted Voldemort gone so I would get my lovely Diagon Alley back.


>> Montavilla47:
> My main thought in reading this was to wonder what real life
Nazi-esque situation this was referring to. I assumed it must be
based on something, because everything else seemed to be, But
it didn't ring any bells.

Mike:
I was thinking the Warsaw ghetto. YMMV



> 10. There has been a lot of debate about Harry's use of
> unforgivable curses.  Here we have the first time he uses one as
> he performs the Imperius Curse on Bogrod and Travers. 

Mike:
Pippin had a very good answer for this. I will just add that as a 
part of their plan, using Imperious was perfectly acceptable to me. 
The wizarding world has it bass-ackwards when it comes to laws and 
punishment. You don't make the magic illegal, you make the results 
of the magic illegal. In this case, the use of Imperious minimizes 
the damage as well as advances the Trio's objectives. Am I advocating
"the end justifies the means"? In a way, yes, but I've just said that 
it's questionable as to whether the means should be considered wrong, 
in this case.



> 12. As they enter the vault, they realize that the treasure has
> been charmed or cursed to burn their flesh and multiply.  Should
> Griphook have anticipated this little snag?  Why aren't they more
> prepared for this?  Was Griphook's lapse intentional?

Mike:
I just realized why you asked this question, this way. Griphook was 
the one who put the fake sword in the Lestrange vault. He must have 
been told what to expect there and what to be careful of not doing.

I still like Montavilla47's answer:

>> You know, it might have been handy for them to have had a
cursebreaker along for the heist, don't you think? Wonder where they
could have found a cursebreaker.... <<

LOL!!



> 14. Harry, Ron, and Hermione escape on the dragon's back in truly
> spectacular fashion.  How did you feel about the dragon's escape?
> How do you feel about Gringotts and goblins in general after
> Harry's experiences?

Mike:
It just confirmed to me what the goblins were all about. Gold and 
treasure. And they don't care a whit for other species or cultures. 
They probably justify in their own minds their position on ownership 
of goblin craftsmanship and somehow square that with their position 
on wand ownership. But to me, it's a nonsensical contradiction that 
can't be reconciled.

>From http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/184093

>> Jen: I read it the same as Pippin but not because of the section
where Bill says 'especially prone to' the beliefs about treasure. 

Mike:
I need to correct a canon misinterpretation. This "prone" section was 
about mistrust of wizards "in matters of gold and treasure".

In the next paragraph, Bill says, "To a goblin, the rightful and true 
master of any object is the maker, not the purchaser. All goblin-made 
objects are, in goblin eyes, rightfully theirs." <DH p.517, US>

There are no qualifiers to this. No "some goblins" when it comes to 
ownership. It's "to a goblin" and "in goblin eyes". So there is no 
question that this is a goblin belief, not just a Gringotts' goblin 
or a Griphook position.


>> Mike previously:
>> But goblins? Where was the exception? Which one broke ranks to
>> show us that they don't all think the way Griphook thinks?

> Jen: This doesn't prove all goblins are like Griphook in their
beliefs about treasure though, only that all goblins appear to
believe as Griphook does when it comes to the 'wizarding war'.

Mike now:
I think it shows both. Goblins were the second magical creatures we 
met through Harry (if you don't count Hagrid's half-gianthood ;)) I 
give them credit for fighting wizards for their beliefs, I just wish 
I'd seen that those beliefs were worth fighting for. Other than 
carrying wands (covered above) all I see goblins interested in is 
gold and treasure.

I can't prove all goblins think like Griphook. But without a 
contradicting example I don't see why I should formulate a non-
canonical goblin position. 


Zara thinks that Griphook is the exception when it comes to goblins.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/184103
>> Zara:
> Yes, I think Griphook is supposed to be the exception because he
initially consents to help Harry (and also, to be *NOT* the
exception, as Firenze and Dobby are proven not to be in the examples 
from your post I snipped). <snip>

Griphook responds by being "not typical". To me,
this is saying that, just as with all the other races, the issues
wizards are having with goblins, are absolutely created at least in
part, by the treatment of goblins by wizards.

Mike:
I've no doubt wizards treat goblins poorly. They treat all non-humans 
poorly. Hell, they treat wizards that don't have the right blood 
poorly. But goblins don't have the moral high ground over wizards 
here. They have the same disdain for all non-goblin creatures that 
wizards have for non-humans.

But I must be missing something. I don't understand what you're 
saying about Griphook. What does "to be *NOT* the exception" mean?

I do think Dobby and Firenze were the exceptions. They also happened 
to be leaders, that eventually got others in their species to follow 
their example. Griphook seems to be the opposite. He looks like a 
follower to me. He may be more like Bella than Lucius in his zeal, 
but he's not a trail-blazer in my eyes. YMMV

Mike