CHAPDISC: DH27, The Final Hiding Place

[cubfanbudwoman]

No: HPFGUIDX 184124

Jen: 
> 1) What did you think would be the 'final hiding place' when
> reading the chapter title? Were you expecting a Horcrux at Hogwarts 
> all along?

Potioncat:
> Yes, I knew it would be the diadem, in the RoR with the Potions 
> Book.

SSSusan:
Me too, me too!  This was one I'd been counting on for a long time.  
And since I never wanted Harry to be a Horcrux, intentional or 
otherwise, I suspect I thought I was off the hook for that particular 
little theory. ;)


Jen:
> 2) Do you think the dragon plays a symbolic role? Is it a 
> significant part of this chapter for another reason? Or did you 
> find the mentions of the dragon more filler?

Alla:
> Oh heck, I am kicking myself all over again, but as you know I had
> been missing simple symbolism lately and not just here. Yes, I think
> Dragon plays symbolic role and I think it is a very simple 
> symbolism.  Hogwarts motto is Don't wake up a sleeping dragon, yes?
> I think escape of the Dragon foreshadows Hogwarts fighting and
> escaping Voldemort's tyranny.

SSSusan:
Wow, Alla, I totally missed this!  I'm smacking my forehead now, but 
this had *never* occurred to me. :)

My thought was more like Potioncat's....

Potioncat: 
> I thought it was an act of preparation. They were savoring that 
> very good moment, watching a dragon fly off to freedom. It would be 
> like watching the sun set or the stars before a battle.

SSSusan:
Yes, sort of like a moment of silent contemplation and calming before 
taking on a big endeavor.  At this moment, I can't help think of an 
Olympic athlete, visualizing his/her performance before actually 
beginning it.


Jen:
> 3) Harry's vision of Voldemort killing everyone within reach at
> Malfoy Manor is a first-hand view of Voldemort using the Elder
> wand.  Do you believe Voldemort exhibits extraordinary magical 
> power in this  scene or were his powers about what you expected he 
> was capable of regardless of the wand? Any thoughts on Bellatrix and
> Lucius '[throwing] others behind them in their race for the door'?

Potioncat:
> I think LV could have caused havoc with any wand. While it isn't
> clear to us, perhaps he thought the wand should have worked better.
>
> It was a very scary scene. What kind of leader just kills his own
> ramdom people in a rage? In a way it prepares us for LV's murder of
> Snape. No it doesn't, but it shows how very little LV values life.

SSSusan:
It was VERY scary indeed.  And it struck me in a way that I'll 
mention more in my response to question #4.


Jen:
> 4) Voldemort initially believes his Horcruxes must be safe because
> he would feel 'if he, himself, most important and precious, had been
> attacked, mutilated[.]' Comments about either Voldemort's reasoning
> or how he describes his Horcruxes? Did the course of Voldemort's
> thoughts about his Horcruxes and the realization that Harry is
> hunting them offer any new glimpses into his interior life?

Olivier:
> I like this question very much. Voldemort is an interesting, and in 
> fact somewhat atypical, villain. Unlike your garden-variety evil 
> overlord bent to world domination (à la Sauron or Palpatine), he is 
> in fact not overtly concerned with power, in the sense of
> having the ability to make other people do his bidding. With his 
> talents and Slughorn support, he could have probably easily become 
> Minister of Magic, or headmaster of Hogwarts, or appoint himself in 
> DH after the fall of the ministry. But he doesn't. And what he 
> really cares about, he does himself. Nor does he seem to really 
> believe in pure-blood supremacy or in any coherent political 
> ideology (à la Magneto or Lucius). And love or the appreciation of 
> others leaves him apparently supremely cold (unlike, say, Jafar
> or Maurice de Bracy or Draco). Yet he is not totally devoid of 
> motives either. What Voldemort is after is another sort of power: 
> that of negating the external reality of the world. If
> something frustrates him, he refuses to even consider the 
> possibility that something could be wrong with his desires. Rather, 
> like an impatient very young child, he breaks something. So when he 
> cannot kill Harry, he seeks a new wand, killing everyone in the way,
> when he doesn't get the prophecy, he tortures Avery...
>
> This also explains why the current Voldemort, contrary to Diary!
> Riddle or Locket!Riddle, is rather devoid of seductive powers. The 
> deeper he goes in his deluded quest to negate external reality, the 
> lesser his ability to communicate with others....

SSSusan:
Olivier likes the question (me, too), and I like the answer Olivier 
offered.  Voldemort is SUCH a fascinating character, and I am 
especially intrigued with what Olivier brought up concerning the 
*changes* in Voldemort "the deeper he goes in his deluded quest" and 
his description of Voldy as like an impatient young child.  Why?  
Because THIS is what strikes me about the Voldy we are seeing in the 
last year or two of the story.  

He's IRRATIONAL.  

He's always been someone who frightens even his closest followers, 
but I wonder if even they had always believed that he really would 
do – or even if Voldy always *would* have done – something like he 
did when he got the news about the cup and started AKing everyone in 
sight.

For all Snape's talk about Voldemort having his way with anyone who 
wears his emotions on his sleeve or anyone who lets his emotions 
control himself, what has Voldemort himself turned into as this year 
has progressed?  Someone whose emotions totally rule him!  He rages, 
he screams, he loses sight of what he's facing.  I'm sure he's always 
been somewhat irrational and definitely unpredictable in behavior, 
but we have to believe that, for him to have risen this far, he must 
have had some plans, some rationality, some charisma in addition to 
the fear he evoked in people.  And it seems to me that he's losing 
that more and more.  He's still arrogant and totally (over?) 
confident of his supreme talent & skill, but as doubts and 
insecurities and frustrations seep in, he seems to be unable to 
calculate, to reason, to keep his emotions from totally taking him 
over.


Jen:
> 6) In a final assessment of why Dumbledore was the only wizard 
> Voldemort reportedly feared, what was the basis of Voldemort's
> fear? Did it have to do with Dumbledore's knowledge of Tom Riddle's
> past or other factors?

Alla:
> I was about to answer that it is Dumbledore's raw magical power, but
> thinking about it, I think the answer that it is Dumbledore's
> knowledge of Tom's Riddle misdeeds makes more sense to me.
<snip>
> I think Voldemort is afraid because of the knowledge is power thing,
> I do not even think it is the Love thing, that Voldemort cannot
> understand.

SSSusan:
And I'm opting for the "All of the above" choice myself:  DD's raw 
magical power; DD's knowledge and *insight* into Tom (which Voldy 
surely found EXTREMELY disconcerting); and The Love Thing.  All of 
it, I think, contributed to his fearing DD.


Jen:
> 7) Harry is the one to determine when they jump off the dragon; he's
> the one who casts the protective spells. When Hermione attempts to
> plan their trip to Hogwarts rather than following Harry's lead,
> Harry 'firmly' decides the course of action. Is this a new twist in
> the Harry/Hermione relationship? Do you think something changed
> between them over the course of the year or is it typical that Harry
> takes over in certain situations?

SSSusan:
I think this is a continuation of what we saw after Dobby died at 
Shell Cottage.  Once Harry dug that grave, he became extremely 
decisive and take-charge.  I think this is more of the same, as he's 
out of the depressive on-the-run-and-making-no-progress phase, has 
been jolted by Dobby's death, and has now determined he must 
establish a real plan or at least not sit still but take action.

Siriusly Snapey Susan