CHAPDISC: DH27, The Final Hiding Place

[Jen Reese]

No: HPFGUIDX 184148

Chapter question:
> 9)  Please add any additional questions or comments that aren't 
> covered in this summary.  

Jen answers herself: I thought of something else about this chapter.  
It was an unusual chapter because the reader spends so much time in 
Voldemort's head and so little in Harry's.  Voldemort's extreme 
rage 'extinguishes' Harry's present moment quickly and completely; 
Harry doesn't have any warning or awareness of his own.  I'm thinking 
the chapter isn't only meant to reveal aspects of the plot but to 
foreshadows how deep the connection between Harry & Voldemort is 
becoming.  Harry's chosen in the latter part of the story to use the 
connection rather than attempt to block it, and it seems like the two 
are even more strongly bound together because of it.  More 
foreshadowing for the soul piece in Harry?

> Alla: 
> Oh heck, I am kicking myself all over again, but as you know I had 
> been missing simple symbolism lately and not just here. Yes, I 
> think Dragon plays symbolic role and I think it is a very simple
> symbolism.  Hogwarts motto is Don't wake up a sleeping dragon, yes? 
> I think escape of the Dragon foreshadows Hogwarts fighting and
> escaping Voldemort's tyranny.

Jen:  That's good!  I honestly couldn't think why so much time was 
spent on the dragon when the Trio could've spent time talking about 
Gringotts/Griphook or the new Horcrux. It seemed unusual for JKR to 
completely drop such an important event as Gringotts with barely any 
discussion.  Where was Hermione saying "I told you so"?  What did 
Harry think about the events?

Now I'm thinking the not-exactly-sleeping dragon is Voldemort as 
well, waking up to the fact that Harry is hunting his Horcruxes. He 
was 'crazed, frenzied' in a way he hasn't yet exhibited imo.

Alla:
> I think Voldemort is afraid because of the knowledge is power
> thing, I do not even think it is the Love thing, that Voldemort 
> cannot understand. I think he is afraid that Dumbledore knew him
> when he was a little boy, who was already set up on hurting others,
> but who was probably also hurt that his parents "abandoned' him or
> something like that. I think that he is afraid that Dumbledore knew
> his vulnerabilities and despite his death managed to do something
> about it.

SSSusan:
> And I'm opting for the "All of the above" choice myself: DD's raw
> magical power; DD's knowledge and *insight* into Tom (which Voldy
> surely found EXTREMELY disconcerting); and The Love Thing. All of
> it, I think, contributed to his fearing DD.

Jen:  I used to think LV feared Dumbledore's magical power, 
particularly the mysterious defeat of Grindelwald during Riddle's 
younger years.  Then came the moment in the cave when Dumbledore says 
Tom fears the dark & dead bodies.  Was part of LV's fear how little 
Dumbledore fears *him*, the great Lord Voldemort?  Dumbledore still 
thinks of him as little Tom Riddle as he tells LV in 'Lord 
Voldemort's Request' in HBP.  Finally, this chapter pulls everything 
together - Voldemort underestimated yet again, never realizing 
Dumbledore might use his vulnerabilities against him, because in LV's 
mind Tom Riddle was obliterated.  

I like Debbie's thought too, that Riddle couldn't ever charm 
Dumbledore or convince him there was nothing suspicious about him 
after their first meeting. 

> Olivier:
> Yet he is not totally devoid of motives either. What Voldemort is
> after is another sort of power: that of negating the external 
> reality of the world. If something frustrates him, he refuses to 
> even consider the possibility that something could be wrong with 
> his desires. Rather, like an impatient very young child, he breaks 
> something. So when he cannot kill Harry, he seeks a new wand,
> killing everyone in the way, when he doesn't get the prophecy, he 
> tortures Avery...
<snip>
> And finally, this is also the reason why, in the end, I feel some
> pity for Lord Voldemort. I can't help but see, through the flaring
> nostrils and the red eyes, an insecure toddler which has grown too
> fast and who throw fits and tantrums at everything that displease 
> him, in the hope, perhaps, that a loving mother will eventually 
> take him in her arms and whisper in a soothing voice that 
> everything is going to be alright.

> SSSusan:
> Olivier likes the question (me, too), and I like the answer Olivier 
> offered.  Voldemort is SUCH a fascinating character, and I am 
> especially intrigued with what Olivier brought up concerning the 
> *changes* in Voldemort "the deeper he goes in his deluded quest" 
> and his description of Voldy as like an impatient young child. 
> Why? Because THIS is what strikes me about the Voldy we are seeing
> in the last year or two of the story.  
> 
> He's IRRATIONAL.  

Jen: I like Olivier's description too, as the world's biggest toddler 
run amuck. <g>  Seriously, I thought Olivier's analysis & SSSusan's 
additions (some snipped) sum up Voldemort very well. I do think 
Dumbledore wanted to instill a sense of pity in Harry by telling him 
Riddle's story, a story so similar to Harry's own life, yet diverging 
where it really mattered: Harry had a loving family once upon a time, 
and that made a huge difference.  Even after they were dead, Harry 
had parents or parent figures who protected and saved him.  Riddle 
knew nothing about his past, whether he was ever loved, and never had 
the experience of feeling deeply loved since Merope died so quickly 
after his birth.  (I think Merope would have shown love towards baby 
Tom, whatever she was capable of given her state of mind.  Otherwise 
she wouldn't have worried about delivering at a place where Tom would 
receive care.) 

Carol:
> Setting aside the almost certainly deliberate allusion to LOTR, 
> Voldemort's words are those of an egomaniac who can't conceive of 
> being either defeated or outsmarted. (It's interesting that he, who
> believes that death is the end of everything, speculates that 
> Dumbledore is interfering from beyond the grave--as indeed he is
> via Portrait!DD and Headmaster Snape.) Also, of course, his 
> inability to sense the theft or destruction of his Horcruxes 
> indicates how irreparably mutilated his soul now is, barring the 
> infinitesimally small chance that he'll repent. I'm not sure I 
> understand what you have in mind about glimpses of Voldemort's 
> internal life. I don't think he really has one. It's all plotting 
> and scheming or rage or fear, with the fear offset by supreme 
> egotism.

Jen: By 'interior life' I meant what Voldemort thinks & feels, how he 
processes events.  It's the most prolonged time we spend in 
Voldemort's mind, and the only time I remember hearing first-hand 
that LV had doubts or senses of 'unease', or how he thought of Harry 
& Dumbledore. It sounds like for you that glimpse was more of the 
same old thing the reader already knows about how Voldemort thinks & 
plans.  

Hehe, good thought about Dumbledore interfering from the grave....

Carol:
> I was keeping count, of course, and since I had suspected the tiara
> as the Ravenclaw Horcrux since HBP, it made no difference to my
> (incorrect) view that Harry "couldn't" be a Horcrux because a
> Horcrux is a deliberate creation requiring an encasing spell and 
> because of the complications that would ensue--Harry would have to
> die to destroy the Horcrux, but Harry couldn't be "the one with the
> power to vanquish the Dark Lord" if he were dead. I still think 
> that an accidental Horcrux is not quite the same thing as a 
> Horcrux, but it took "The Prince's Tale" to persuade me that I was
> wrong. 

Jen: I still don't think of Harry as a real Horcrux exactly.  What 
persuaded you from The Prince's Tale?  Dumbledore doesn't call him a 
Horcrux.  I guess DD wouldn't though, since he's not telling Snape 
everything about the Horcuxes.  Reading Dumbledore's explanation 
again about a bit of Voldemort's soul attaching to Harry's soul made 
Harry sound more like a host than a true Horcrux.  Not that I can't 
be convinced otherwise!!  

Chapater question:
> 8) Any thoughts on Harry's decision to go to Hogsmeade even after
> learning Voldemort believed it would be 'impossible' for Harry to
> enter Hogsmeade undetected? Did Harry forget this point in his haste
> to find the last Horcrux?

Carol:
> Possibly Harry thinks that the Invisibility Cloak, Ignotus
> Peverell's own cloak and a Hallow of which he is the rightful 
> owner, will be sufficient. Either that or he knows that they'll 
> face obstacles but have to act now, regardless. And Voldemort also
> thinks it's "impossible" that any of the remaining Horcruxes could
> have been stolen, much less destroyed--and, of course, Voldemort is
> wrong in that regard. He could be equally wrong about the 
> protections around Hogsmeade being "impossible" to get by.

Jen: Very true that Harry can't trust everything Voldemort thinks is 
impossible since LV's full of such certainty regarding his plans.  (A 
little like Harry 'never' forgiving Snape <g>).  I was a little 
surprised Harry didn't tell Hermione & Ron what he learned about the 
protections at Hogsmeade though, just to put Hermione, in particular, 
on the alert.  He didn't want to be bothered with delays apparently.  
I found that uncharacteristic.  Not the haste, that's Harry after 
all, but how little he explains to Ron/Hermione about the time spent 
in LV's head.  Harry seems more isolated from his friends in the 
chapter, which likely was intentional since Harry has to make a 
choice in the ROR about including others; making a choice not to be 
like Dumbledore.