CHAPDISC: DH27, The Final Hiding Place

[Carol]

No: HPFGUIDX 184160

Carol earlier:
> I think it serves him well until Harry's self-sacrifice creates a
love magic that defeats it *and* it discovers that LV is its true master.
> 
> Pippin:
> (assuming you meant to type "Harry is its true master")

Carol again:

Yes. Sorry about that. LV and Harry are so similar, you know. :-0
Seriously, however, I don't think we're ever going to agree on this
point, and I still see no time at which the wand failed LV--but also
no indication, except for the "enchanted, starry sphere" in which
Nagini floats, of the "extraordinary magic" that Snape says LV has
performed with that wand (not that he's been present for any of it)
and that LV attributes to his own extraordinary powers (DH Am. ed.
652-53). Exactly how does a Wizard with extraoedinary powers who has
already performed extraordinary magic (including Horcruxes and the
protections surrounding the locket Horcrux) with the yew wand that has
done everything he asks of it except kill Harry Potter (655) determine
that the Elder Wand, which has created Nagini's bubble and killed all
those people and is performing his "usual" extraordinary magic, is
failing him? What has he asked it to do that it hasn't done?  And he
says that he feels no difference between it and the yew wand that
chose him and was created for him. Whatever he is expecting--and does
not even notice until the night of the battle even though he obtained
the Elder Wand at Easter time ("all this long night . . .  I have sat
here wondering," p. 655)--is completely unralistic. The wand can't do
more than it has already done--except kill Harry Potter--which, to all
intents and purposes, it later does, thwarted only by the drop of
blood and not by LV's not being its true master (the death of Snape
having been for nothing in that regad). The Death Stick has indeed
been a Death Stick. There is no evidence *on page* of its failure
before Harry's self-sacrifice throws love magic into the works.

Anyway, there's no point in playing ping pong here. My arugments
aren't going to change your mind and yours won't change mine. IMO, JKR
wanted to give Voldemort a reason, or rather an excuse, to kill Snape
without AKing him, which in turn would give Harry the opportunity to
obtain Snape's memories in what must rank as Snape's most spectacular
feat of magic and look, one last time, into Snape's eyes. It's a plot
device, and, to be less than objective for a moment, it stinks. (Well,
it will be extremely horrific and hair-raising on film, and it does
ultimately result in an act of supreme courage and self-sacrifice by
both Snape and Harry, but it still makes me angry that JKR had Snape
die for no reason except to give Harry his memories and be
redeemed/forgiven. The wand *did not* fail Voldemort, and, of course,
Snape did not murder or defeat Dumbledore, a secret he reveals to
*Harry* but keeps from LV at the price of his life. He could have
said, "But my lord, I am not the wand's master," confessing either the
deal with Dumbledore or the fact that DD had been disarmed by
*someone* before he entered the room. He remains silent, in the face
of death, but it still stinks, in my view, because *there is no reason
for LV to doubt the Elder Wand's power in his hands.* It has done
everything he asked it to do. Just my opinion, and not one with which
I expect anyone to agree.)

Pippin: 
> LV was never its  master, because he never understood what
Grindelwald understood, that you have to defeat the previous master.
Voldemort thinks that killing is enough.

Carol:
Of course. I'm not questioning that. I just see no evidence whatever
that the wand that killed all those people, turned the green potion
clear, created Nagini's bubble, killed snape by sucking him into
Nagini's bubble, and "killed" Harry (or at any rate, kille his soul
bit and sent Harry to "King's Cross," however we interpret that scene)
failed LV before Harry's self-sacrifice and the shared blood come into
play. I understand how the Elder Wand works and why LV was not its
true master. I just don't buy that it failed him in any way that he
could recognize. This is the guy, after all, who can't even sense that
his own Horcruxes have been destroyed. How can he sense that a wand
that works perfectly well, as well as the powerful wand that chose him
in the first place, is failing him. Do you see a flaw in Nagini's
bubble? I don't. the flaw is LV's self-confidence, which prompts him
to release her after he's killed Snape. Another reason, I suppose, why
Snape "had" to die for the plot to succeed, but that's no my point.

Pippin: 
> I know you don't want to  believe that Snape had to die. But he did,
for thematic as well as plot-related reasons.

Carol:
I agree that *JKR* considered his death necessary or she would not
have killed him. But I don't want to discuss that here or we'll get
off track. I'm saying, and I'm sorry to keep repeating myself, that
*if* Snape had to die *because the Elder Wand was failing Voldemort*,
we ought to have seen the Elder Wand actually fail Voldemort. And we
saw no such thing. That's all I'm saying.

Pippin:
> I didn't see it myself, until I realized the significance of using
"levicorpus" to retrieve the cup. Snape's aid and instruction was
vital in the destruction of each of the horcruxes. 

Carol responds:
Now there I won't argue with you. In fact, we could discuss it in
detail in another post. But his vital role in the destruction of the
Horcruxes is irrelevant with regard to JKR's failure to show the wand
failing Voldemort. Complete sidenote (sorry): I wonder why Levicorpus
and Liberacorpus, specically identified as <nvbl> in HBP, suddenly
become spoken spells in DH. Never mind. JKR forgot the characteristics
of her own invented spells. Again.

Pippin: 
>  Snape brought Harry the sword that destroyed the locket, Snape's
spell retrieved the cup, Snape stationed the Carrows in Ravenclaw Tower, 

Carol:
Did he? I know that McGonagall says so, but I thought it was LV who
sent them there. (Snape doesn't argue with McGonagall because he can't
blow his cover and is clearly preoccupied with finding and talking to
Harry, as he is again in the fatal interview with LV,) And, in any
case, how does that action, if it's Snape's, help Harry? He certainly
didn't know that Harry would find out about the Ravenclaw Horcrux there.

Pippin:
Snape's memories showed that Dumbledore was much more certain about
Nagini than it seemed when he spoke to Harry, and of course
"expelliarmus" was the final destruction of Voldemort. 

Carol:
Okay. I didn't want to get into Snape's role in helping to destroy the
Horcruxes, which does not really relate to the topic at hand (LV and
the wand or the "need" for Snape to die), but we can add that Snape's
putting Lockhart in his place ("the man, the very man") and telling
him that this is his chance to open the CoS leads to Ron's decision to
talk to Lockhart about rescuing Ginny and, ultimately, to Harry's
destruction of the diary Horcrux. And it's he who discovers that Harry
can speak Parseltongue, also necessary for the destruction of the
diary and cup Horcruxes. With regard to the ring Horcrux, he didn't
help to destroy it, "only" to prolong DD's life afterwards. However,
if Harry hadn't entered to CoS in the first place, the Sword of
Gryffindor could not have been used to destroy the ring and the
locket. (Of course, Snape is only one of a number of characters who
contributed in one way or another to the opening of the chamber. (I
give Harry sole credit for the actual destruction of the diary and the
accidental steeping of the Sword of Gryffindor in Basilisk venom, and
DD and Fawkes credit for his survival, setting aside the question of
the "will" and sentience of the magical artifacts involved. Hermione's
research, of course, also contributed to Harry's ultimate success.)

Pippin: 
> Snape was not Harry's antagonist. He was a *mentor* -- and we all
know (sniff!) what happens to them.

Carol:
That's an interesting way to look at it. He was Harry's ally and
teacher, certainly. And in that role, we should also remember that he
taught Harry about Bezoars (and as HBP reminded Harry of what he had
learned earlier).

Anyway, Snape's life and Harry's are intertwined in unexpected ways
throughout the series, and Harry may never realize the full extent.
But that's not a reason why he has to die, nor does it have any
bearing on his dying the *way* he did and for the *reason* he did. I
do think that Harry's shock at both those things prepared the way for
his acceptance of Snape's memories. If he had witnessed Snape being
killed for a good reason in a less horrific manner, he probably would
have thought smugly that it served him right. But if he'd been AK'd,
he couldn't have provided the memories.

In short, I understand perfectly how Snape's death fits JKR's plot
requirements. I'm just not convinced that Voldemort had sufficient
reason to suspect that he wasn't the Elder Wand's master.

As for the thematic "necessity" of Snape's death, or the thematic
implications of having him die, we could write a book on that topic.

Carol, who probably should have made two different posts here to keep
from going off track