Sirius and Snape parallels again - Sirius' death (LONG)

[lizzyben04]

No: HPFGUIDX 185085



> Alla:
<snip> You are not 
> saying that Dumbledore planned to kill Sirius in specific time and 
> specific place? You are basically saying that he took advantage of 
the 
> opportunity that arose and that he did not predict it right away? 
> 
> Because the scary part is that after book 7 I cannot say anymore 
that 
> Dumbledore is a moral man who would not do that and while I still 
do 
> not WANT to believe that he will, as long as the mechanics are 
> explained adequately, I will not put it past Dumbledore. Sigh.
> 
> Alla.


lizzyben: 

I just don't know. After the revelations of DH, it seems like there 
should be some kind of forensic audit of DD's past activities, just 
like they do when criminal activity is discovered at some big firm. 
What was DD responsible for? 

As far as Sirius, it's pretty clear (IMO) that DD killed him off, but 
was it spur of the moment or long-premeditated? It depends if you 
prefer light tinfoil or full-hat tinfoil. For some reason I still 
want to give DD the benefit of the doubt, that maybe he saw an 
opportunity to dispose of a problem, but... that doesn't seem to 
quite fit. It's not elaborate enough of a plan. If there's one thing 
we know about DD, it's that he likes over-elaborate plans.

*full tin-foil on*
Ahile back, I think people discussed the meaning of the chessboard in 
PS - and that the invisible hand moving the chess  pieces might be 
DD. If so, who's on the other side? You said that maybe there's no 
one on the other side. 

And I think that's right. There's one invisible hand moving *both* 
sides of the chess game, controlling both the black & white pieces. 
Mixing metaphors, it's as if, above the chessboard, there's a large 
spider's web w/a spider in the center. All the chess pieces are 
connected to the web w/invisible strings & the spider twitches 
strings of the web to move *both* sides closer to the center & create 
confrontations. To the naked eye on the ground, it'd look like the 
pieces are being moved by two antagonistic sides, w/o perceiving that 
one entity moves them both. I think that's ultimately what is 
happening. And it reflects DD's view of the world, in that people 
truly are no more than pawns to him. If he can sacrifice one (or ten) 
to gain some small advantage, he will. He values human life very, 
very cheaply. Why does he play the game? IMO because he gets a power 
kick & it satisfies his enormous ego. He claims the mantle of the 
Leader of Light, while being able to control & manipulate everyone 
around him. Even the MOM can't do *that*. 

After PS, there's not much I'd put past DD - & in that book he 
basically manipulated *both* Harry & LV to engineer a confrontation 
between them. He brought LV to the center by bring him back to 
Hogwarts (Tossing Quirrel into the dumpster...) and then baiting LV 
w/the Stone, and Harry by teaching him about the Mirror & obstacles. 
Then he disappeared while the damaged child went into the hidden room 
to face a dark wizard. Same thing in COS - DD knew full well that 
Harry would be facing down Riddle. He engineered the confrontation in 
DH, probably HBP & GOF too. So given that, it stands to reason that 
he engineered the OOTP confrontation as well. He's 
definitely baiting LV into seizing the prophecy. He sends Snape to do 
Occlumency lessons that only seem to heighten the connection. DD says 
that the connection only ends when LV attempts to posess Harry when 
Harry is "full of love". Sirius is a loved one.  When Sirius is 
killed at the MOM, DD doesn't actually kill/capture LV, but only 
forces him to possess Harry. LV flees, connection ends. DD seems 
rather clinical & unsurprised by any of this. IIRC, there's other 
posts that have explained better how DD could've done this. But yeah. 
He could've had Sirius killed/arrested much earlier, so I do get the 
sensation that DD *waiting* for something, & that was keeping the 
Sirius pawn "in reserve" to be brought out for the big confrontation.



Carol:

And there is no evidence whatever
that he asked or expected Black to sacrifice himself. All he expected
him to do (rightly, IMO) is keep himself out of danger.

I suppose he could have suggested activities for him (unsigned letters
to the editor of the Daily Prophet, etc.), but Black isn't really the
letter-writing type. He said himself that his big disguise was useless
since Lucius Malfoy had seen him and recognized him on the platform,
and the Invisibility Cloaks were needed elsewhere (after Sturgis
Posmore's capture, they were down to one cloak), and Black was known
to be reckless.

He was not "imprisoned in a place where he could be killed by a Dark
wizard," as lizzyben says. He was restricted to his home where he
could *not* be killed or captured by a Dark wizard. 


lizzyben:

I was referring the MOM fight, in which Sirius was (IMO) immobilized 
to the spot for Bellatrix to dispose of. Post

-DH, I don't know how anyone can truly believe that DD was looking 
out for Sirius' best interests. Sirius was one of, if not THE, 
biggest obstacle to The Plan. As we know, The Plan 
involved Harry marching placidly to death at the hands of LV. Just 
*imagine* how Sirius would've reacted if he'd found out DD's 
Plan! "Hell, no, you manipulative old bastard! Pack your things, 
Harry, we're going to Barbados!" 

Sirius was independent, mistrusted DD, & truly loved & wanted what 
was best for Harry as a person. If Harry had been able to consult 
Sirius, he might never have done the death march at all. Thus, Sirius 
is a Problem for DD. That's not "uncanonical"; that's the canon in 
regards to DD's Plan, Sirius' status as godfather & Sirius' likely 
reaction to such a Plan. 

Sirius was Harry's legal guardian & best positioned to take away DD's 
control of Harry. After Godric's Hollow, DD took Harry away from 
Sirius while Sirius was still in shock. DD never lifted a finger to 
help Sirius in Azkaban for 12+ years, even though he never had a 
trial (I wonder if DD pulled some strings there as well...) After 
Sirius escaped, IMO DD was not happy, & could think of nothing else 
to do but to imprision Sirius again. Until his unfortunate death. And 
isn't it funny how those charges got cleared immediately after his 
death? Why wouldn't DD want to clear the charges before? Easy - he 
did not want Sirius to be free; he wanted Sirius out of the way, one 
way or another. I'm not sure if any single person suffered as much as 
Sirius because of DD's machinations. And I don't even like the guy, 
but come on. You don't have to like someone to recognize when they 
are being mistreated.


Pippin:

But JKR makes it clear that they aren't enough to make
anyone a murderer. It takes something else: either a complete
disregard for the value of human life and the integrity of one's own
soul, or some emotion so overpowering that it blinds the murderer to
what he is doing.


lizzyben:

I would argue that DD meets at least two of those criteria. Canon 
shows us an enormous disregard for human life (Seven Potters plan, 
letting Draco roam free, letting Quirrell/LV roam free, letting 
Basiliks roam free, etc. etc.) DD's emotion does blind him to what he 
is doing, in that he seems unable to recognize how much of his 
hurtful actions are due to his own emotional damage. And I wouldn't 
really count on JKR's moral compass, which continues to confuse & 
confound me. 

And I could actually like DD as a character. But what disturbs *me* 
is that JKR never comes clean about the extent of DD's machinations. 
She now says that he's a Machievelli, and that "he's been pulling a 
lot of strings." *wink, wink, nudge, nudge*. But she never tells 
readers the full truth. I'd be OK if DD came totally clean in DH, 
confessed all & then was forgiven by Harry. But JKR seems to want 
readers to forgive & love him w/o even knowing all that he's done. 
It's sort of like DD's secret w/JKR. And even still, many readers 
will call DD the epitome of goodness, or "benevolent" - while 
referring to a man possibly responsible for the deaths of many 
innocent people. She's set up a wicked man as the epitome of 
goodness; claimed the books are about "choices" while the "Good" 
leader takes away the choices of everyone around him. Claimed it's 
about Good vs. Evil while the leader of the "Good" side is revealed 
to be quite wicked & often seems to be manipulating the "Evil" side 
as well.  When DD does those little inside jokes about "knitting 
patterns," it's not just him that gets the joke; JKR does too. It's 
then that I start feeling that this whole series is some sort of 
inside joke. 



Pippin:

He told Harry that he was not permitted to kill with the Elder Wand
and that he took it to save others from it (DH 35). That *was* one of
his goals. Since he was able to keep and use the Elder Wand for a
whole year after Sirius's death, I think we're shown that he hadn't
used it to kill.


lizzyben:

That's what makes it the perfect crime! :) He *didn't* kill Sirius, 
Bellatrix did. Everyone thinks so; even Bellatrix thinks so. A Priori 
Incantatum examination of the Elder Wand would show only a harmless 
immobilization spell, among the many DD cast that night to catch 
various Death Eaters. The spell was invisible, wordless, & caused 
Sirius' death w/o a trace of evidence, w/o a single (live) witness. 
Of course, Sirius could testify to being strangely immobilized before 
his death, but he is unfortunately dead & unable to tell anyone. DD's 
plans for Good go arwy, but his cover-up plans tend to go quite well. 
And that's why I said that Sirius fits the pattern - from Ariana to 
Moody - there is an air of unwitting *collaboration* between the Dark 
Wizard & DD. The Death Eaters think they killed Mad-Eye themselves, 
not knowing DD provided the leak to make it happen. Bella thinks she 
killed Sirius herself, not knowing that DD provided the hook to make 
it happen. LV thinks he killed Harry himself, not knowing that DD had 
planned it all along. Etc. DD keeps creating prisons to keep 
people "safe", & then inviting a Dark Wizard in. DD sets it up, lets 
a dark wizard do the dirty deed, & ends up with clean hands - 
although not a clean consience. 


At King's Cross, DD is left wondering if he was any better than 
Voldemort. That's way, way, more than just not telling Harry the 
truth. Harry gives him the ringing endorsement that 
DD "only killed people when you had to!" To which DD agrees "True, 
true." So DD agrees that he has killed people "when he had to." But 
DD never actually killed Grindewald, or Voldemort, or any Death 
Eaters that we see. He claims not to know if he killed Ariana. Yet he 
remains wracked w/guilt over the people that he has killed. So the 
question remains - who exactly has DD killed? Hmmm? IMO it's a long 
line stretching from Ariana up through Harry himself. DD spread death 
& destruction on both sides as he moved the chess pieces, but most 
often on his own.

It's sort of funny to me how in OOTP, DD carfully reins in the Death 
Eaters, while seeming to be willing to toss the lives of his own 
followers to the wind. In a way you could actually say that DD's 
Plans were more successful in getting Order people killed than the 
Death Eaters (Seven Potters, Godric's Hollow, Philosopher's Stone, 
OOTP, etc.) It's almost like there's a Death Eater headmaster, Snape-
like, posing as a leader of the Order. And he moves the pawns, not 
for the eventual victory of Light, but for his own power & self-
aggrandizement. Going to full tinfoil mode, in DH it's striking how 
suddenly boring, incompetent & useless LV is now that DD, the brains 
of the operation, is gone. The spider has disappeared, leaving only 
the web in place for the final confrontation.




lizzyben, wondering why people don't add cute taglines anymore?