Sirius and Snape parallels again - Sirius' death (LONG)

[jkoney65]

No: HPFGUIDX 185096

> 
> lizzyben: 
> 
> I just don't know. After the revelations of DH, it seems like there 
> should be some kind of forensic audit of DD's past activities, just 
> like they do when criminal activity is discovered at some big firm. 
> What was DD responsible for? 
> 
> As far as Sirius, it's pretty clear (IMO) that DD killed him off, 
but 
> was it spur of the moment or long-premeditated? It depends if you 
> prefer light tinfoil or full-hat tinfoil. For some reason I still 
> want to give DD the benefit of the doubt, that maybe he saw an 
> opportunity to dispose of a problem, but... that doesn't seem to 
> quite fit. It's not elaborate enough of a plan. If there's one 
thing 
> we know about DD, it's that he likes over-elaborate plans.


jkoney
As someone who likes conspiracy theories (second shooter on the 
grassy knoll, sure), ufo's and monsters (bigfoot, etc) I'm having a 
tough time finding enough evidence that this could be plausible.

Dumbledore helps Sirius escape by reminding Hermione of the time 
turner. He provides a space (the cave) for Sirius to hide in during 
GoF. He recommends that Sirius not leave the house for his own 
protection. Sirius could have left the house at any time. The one 
time he does to go to the station he is recognized. 

It is Sirius who heads to the MoM when he finds Harry is in trouble. 
His cockiness of laughing during a fight is what killed him. That 
scene sets up the fight between Molly & Bella. I can't remember any 
evidence that suggests that Dumbledore sent any type of spell at 
Sirius.


> lizzyben
> *full tin-foil on*
> Ahile back, I think people discussed the meaning of the chessboard 
in 
> PS - and that the invisible hand moving the chess  pieces might be 
> DD. If so, who's on the other side? You said that maybe there's no 
> one on the other side. 
> 
> And I think that's right. There's one invisible hand moving *both* 
> sides of the chess game, controlling both the black & white pieces. 
> Mixing metaphors, it's as if, above the chessboard, there's a large 
> spider's web w/a spider in the center. All the chess pieces are 
> connected to the web w/invisible strings & the spider twitches 
> strings of the web to move *both* sides closer to the center & 
create 
> confrontations. To the naked eye on the ground, it'd look like the 
> pieces are being moved by two antagonistic sides, w/o perceiving 
that 
> one entity moves them both. I think that's ultimately what is 
> happening. And it reflects DD's view of the world, in that people 
> truly are no more than pawns to him. If he can sacrifice one (or 
ten) 
> to gain some small advantage, he will. He values human life very, 
> very cheaply. Why does he play the game? IMO because he gets a 
power 
> kick & it satisfies his enormous ego. He claims the mantle of the 
> Leader of Light, while being able to control & manipulate everyone 
> around him. Even the MOM can't do *that*. 

jkoney
I think you are taking the spider web metaphor too far. I think that 
it is intended to show us that there are things going on we don't 
understand, yet. We eventually find out about how DD was hurt, we 
find out why Snape killed him and we find out that Harry wasn't 
raised as a pig for slaughter. Dumbledore had a very strong belief 
that Harry would survive his encounter with Voldemort. He just didn't 
tell anyone.


> lizzyben:
> After PS, there's not much I'd put past DD - & in that book he 
> basically manipulated *both* Harry & LV to engineer a confrontation 
> between them. He brought LV to the center by bring him back to 
> Hogwarts (Tossing Quirrel into the dumpster...) and then baiting LV 
> w/the Stone, and Harry by teaching him about the Mirror & 
obstacles. 
> Then he disappeared while the damaged child went into the hidden 
room 
> to face a dark wizard. Same thing in COS - DD knew full well that 
> Harry would be facing down Riddle. He engineered the confrontation 
in 
> DH, probably HBP & GOF too. So given that, it stands to reason that 
> he engineered the OOTP confrontation as well. He's 
> definitely baiting LV into seizing the prophecy. He sends Snape to 
do 
> Occlumency lessons that only seem to heighten the connection. DD 
says 
> that the connection only ends when LV attempts to posess Harry when 
> Harry is "full of love". Sirius is a loved one.  When Sirius is 
> killed at the MOM, DD doesn't actually kill/capture LV, but only 
> forces him to possess Harry. LV flees, connection ends. DD seems 
> rather clinical & unsurprised by any of this. IIRC, there's other 
> posts that have explained better how DD could've done this. But 
yeah. 
> He could've had Sirius killed/arrested much earlier, so I do get 
the 
> sensation that DD *waiting* for something, & that was keeping the 
> Sirius pawn "in reserve" to be brought out for the big 
confrontation.
> 

jkoney:
We don't see Dumbledore instructing Quirrel to go get himself 
possessed by Voldemort. Dumbledore isn't the one who took over Ginny 
and brought her down to the chamber. In fact DD doesn't know where 
the chamber is. He didn't give Harry the portkey to take him to 
Voldemort. I can't find the logical reason that DD would want Harry 
to confront Voldemort on his own away from any and all help.

It was Dumbledore who protected Harry in the atrium at the MoM. He 
didn't kill Voldemort because he knew he couldn't. He did try to 
capture Voldemort but he escaped. When Voldemort possessed Harry he 
didn't try to kill Harry. Harry saves himself at this point by his 
feeling of love.
 
 
> lizzyben:
> 
> I was referring the MOM fight, in which Sirius was (IMO) 
immobilized 
> to the spot for Bellatrix to dispose of. Post
> 
> -DH, I don't know how anyone can truly believe that DD was looking 
> out for Sirius' best interests. Sirius was one of, if not THE, 
> biggest obstacle to The Plan. As we know, The Plan 
> involved Harry marching placidly to death at the hands of LV. Just 
> *imagine* how Sirius would've reacted if he'd found out DD's 
> Plan! "Hell, no, you manipulative old bastard! Pack your things, 
> Harry, we're going to Barbados!" 
> 
> Sirius was independent, mistrusted DD, & truly loved & wanted what 
> was best for Harry as a person. If Harry had been able to consult 
> Sirius, he might never have done the death march at all. Thus, 
Sirius 
> is a Problem for DD. That's not "uncanonical"; that's the canon in 
> regards to DD's Plan, Sirius' status as godfather & Sirius' likely 
> reaction to such a Plan. 
> 
> Sirius was Harry's legal guardian & best positioned to take away 
DD's 
> control of Harry. After Godric's Hollow, DD took Harry away from 
> Sirius while Sirius was still in shock. DD never lifted a finger to 
> help Sirius in Azkaban for 12+ years, even though he never had a 
> trial (I wonder if DD pulled some strings there as well...) After 
> Sirius escaped, IMO DD was not happy, & could think of nothing else 
> to do but to imprision Sirius again. Until his unfortunate death. 
And 
> isn't it funny how those charges got cleared immediately after his 
> death? Why wouldn't DD want to clear the charges before? Easy - he 
> did not want Sirius to be free; he wanted Sirius out of the way, 
one 
> way or another. I'm not sure if any single person suffered as much 
as 
> Sirius because of DD's machinations. And I don't even like the guy, 
> but come on. You don't have to like someone to recognize when they 
> are being mistreated.


jkoney
DD took Harry away to protect him. Sirius was the number one suspect. 
He was supposed to be the secret keeper. Getting Harry away from him 
is logical.

The charges got cleared because Voldemort and his people were seen, 
some where captured and Sirius was fighting against them. Of course 
the minister is going to do everything possible to put the best spin 
on it and get back in DD & Harry's good graces.

I still have a problem with the great manipulation that DD did to 
Harry. DD may have set the pieces up, but Harry made the final 
decision. Doesn't it stand to reason that Harry may have wanted 
revenge on the person who killed his parents. The person who had 
Cedric killed right in front of him, the person most responsible for 
the death of Sirius? 

Revenge is a very strong emotion. We see Harry right from the start, 
never back down when he's faced with thwarting Voldemorts plans. That 
internal fire has to come from some where. I think revenge played a 
part in Harry's mak up.

 
JMO
jkoney