Dumbledore the Manipulator WAS :Re: Sirius and Snape parallels again

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 185108

> > Alla:
> > 
> > They wanted to try, did they not? They wanted  to try to save 
their 
> > friend and that was not quite real battle, was it not? I would 
think
>  they knew pretty well that Ron was not really dying, or anything? 
> 
> Pippin:
> Um, how would they know that? They'd already passed Fluffy and the
> Devil's Snare, either of which might have killed them. It was pure
> luck  that Hermione was able to free herself before the plant could
> immobilize her and keep her from using her wand.

Alla:

True, however, my main point was that they did try even if did not 
come out well.


> 
> > Alla:
> > 
> > Oh I agree that Dumbledore is not afraid of just ANY scene. 
However,
>  I do think that Dumbledore may just be very afraid of the scene 
where
>  Sirius may threaten to take Harry and go somewhere.
> 
> Pippin:
> So what? Are Ron, Hermione and Hogwarts going to be safe if Harry 
runs
> away? They won't be -- Voldemort has his own reasons for wanting
> Hogwarts in his power, Muggleborns dead and blood traitors punished.
> Harry knows that. IMO, Sirius had no more chance of keeping Harry 
out
> of the fight than Harry and Dumbledore had of keeping Sirius out of
> it.

Alla:

You keep saying that Sirius would want to keep Harry out of the 
**fight**. I don't. I am saying that Sirius would want to keep Harry 
out of Dumbledore' clutches if he knew what Dumbledore would have 
prepared for him. I do not think that Dumbledore's way was 
necessarily the only way to win a fight, but we had been through the 
other possibilities for another stories too many times in the past 
lol.

Pippin:
<SNIP>
> Anyway, I still don't get the scenario where Sirius doesn't want his
> godson to share his values. Harry couldn't possibly respect anyone 
who
> was that much of a hypocrite. And neither would I. <SNIP>

Alla:

Neither would I, however it looks like we see what Sirius' values are 
similarly but different.

>> Pippin:
<SNIP>
> Paradoxically, the drunkenness gave *Harry* courage -- the courage 
to
> admit that he was the Chosen One. Slughorn would have been willing 
to
> cooperate, IMO, if Harry had been willing to tell him that before. 
He
> was practically begging to know. 

Alla:

Not sure about that, but I do not believe I have an additional canon, 
so just different interpretations of the same one.

 
> Pippin:
> If he didn't feel it was the right thing to do, his guilt would show
> itself. I don't see any signs of that. He has that big guilty moment
> in HBP, but we're not told who it's for. So it's probably for
> everyone, everyone  he couldn't save, I think. 

Alla:

The last moment I see of Snape when he hears about Dumbledore's plan 
is pig for slaughter. I do not see anything to the contrary, him 
expressing that this is such a cool idea. His guilt does not show, 
neither does his hearty approval. I believe that this means that he 
felt it was a wrong thing to do, but he would do so since it was 
Dumbledore's orders and he always followed them.



> Alla:
>  How about Dumbledore doing  some brainstorming and trying to figure
> out whether Horcrux can be  taken out of alive Harry? How about
> Dumbledore involving Harry in it?
> 
> Pippin:
> 
> Right, DD needs a Manhattan Project -- get all the best minds in
> wizarding together and they can make a lot of horcruxes to 
experiment
> with. You do see some ethical problems with that, I hope? 
<SNIP>

Alla:

Um, with your scenario sure, however that was not mine. I was talking 
about book research, not horcrux making. I thought it was obvious 
that I would not expect Dumbledore to do real life demonstration, lol.




> Pippin:
> Convinced by what? Dumbledore says in OOP that he didn't expect 
Harry
> to go after the Stone, or at any rate to encounter Voldemort so 
quickly.

Alla:

Dumbledore says many things in that speech. He says that he will tell 
Harry everything too. Would it be too much of me to say that he IS 
shown a liar now and I do not believe him more often than I do?

I am convinced by very old post by Dicentra who IMO shown very 
beatifully that Dumbledore wrote book 1 and why. I think link is in 
recommended posts and I believe I 


> Pippin:
<SNIP>
There must have been many people as eager to join the Order
> as Fred and George were. But they're rejected because they don't
> realize what they're getting into, and if they did they wouldn't 
agree
> to it. <SNIP>

Alla:

Maybe. However I think that if there were many people to join and 
Dumbledore rejected them, he did it for a different reason than you 
describe, heh. I think he saw a glimpse in their minds and decided 
that they would not be quick to do all what Dumbledore says and too 
suceptible to manipulation.

Pippin:
> I think Dumbledore picked only people whom he felt would approve if
> they understood what he was doing.  That was presumptuous, but in 
fact
> he doesn't leave a trail of people who regret helping him, and that
> makes him very different from Riddle. 


Alla:

As I said, I almost hate Dumbledore now, however I did not reach a 
stage yet where I will call him same as Riddle, of course not. I 
think he is the example of politician who will do anything, literally 
ANYTHING to achieve his goals, even if the goals are admirable. 
However in the process of doing so, I think he became close enough in 
a sense that he would do things that in my minds good guys should not 
do.


And of course there are not many people who will regret helping him, 
vast majority of them seems to be dead. I am not talking about 
unknown WW, of course, I am talking about characters we know.


JMO,

Alla