Dumbledore the Manipulator WAS :Re: Sirius and Snape parallels again

[littleleahstill]

No: HPFGUIDX 185115

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "julie" <juli17 at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> > > Pippin:
> > > If he didn't feel it was the right thing to do, his guilt 
would 
> show
> > > itself. I don't see any signs of that. He has that big guilty 
> moment
> > > in HBP, but we're not told who it's for. So it's probably for
> > > everyone, everyone  he couldn't save, I think. 
> > 
> > Alla:
> > 
> > The last moment I see of Snape when he hears about Dumbledore's 
> plan 
> > is pig for slaughter. I do not see anything to the contrary, him 
> > expressing that this is such a cool idea. His guilt does not 
show, 
> > neither does his hearty approval. I believe that this means that 
he 
> > felt it was a wrong thing to do, but he would do so since it was 
> > Dumbledore's orders and he always followed them.
> > 
> 
> Julie:
> I don't think it's just a question of what is the right
> or wrong thing to do, nor of simply following orders. Fact
> is, what could Snape do to change anything? <snip> 

> And while Harry may have been Snape's primary concern (due
> to his promise to Lily), I think Snape did have a secondary
> goal of destroying Voldemort. Voldemort is the one who 
> actually killed Lily, after all. I also think Snape has 
> change during the time he's worked for Dumbledore and
> against Voldemort. At the beginning he didn't care about
> anyone's fate except Lily's. By the time he and Dumbledore
> are discussing Harry's grim fate Snape has become someone
> who "saves those he can", as he later saves Lupin. He doesn't
> have to like those he saves, and he certainly doesn't like
> Lupin, but he saves them because it is the right thing to
> do. And I believe he accepts Dumbledore's "plan" not only
> because Harry's confrontation and ultimate death has become
> all but unavoidable, but also because it is the better of
> two unpleasant future options--Voldemort killing Harry 
> and taking over the WW, or the two killing each other and
> the WW being free of Voldemort (and Harry dies either way).

Leah: There's also the point that whatever Snape did in the first 
Voldemort war (and he seems mainly to have been intended as a spy), 
during the second Voldemort war he appears to be in Voldemort's 
inner circle, and certainly by DH, he's literally Voldemort's right 
hand man. So he gets to see Voldemort and his actions first hand and 
in depth.  That seems to be another reason why he might see 
defeating Voldemort as ultimately more important than saving Harry 
from death.

So, returning to the original point we were discussing, even knowing 
what he does about Voldemort and his intentions, Snape's initial 
reaction to Harry being raised 'as a pig for slaughter' is 
repugnance (Snape doesn't know about Harry's chances for survival). 
Ultimately, though Snape seems to decide Voldemort's defeat is the 
most important thing, and he carries on with Dumbledore's plan 
despite his initial repugnance.

Sirius has fought against Voldemort, but he hasn't had up close and 
personal experience of what Voldemort ruling truly entails.  Unlike 
Snape, he does have up close and personal experience of loving 
Harry. That's why if Sirius heard that 'the boy must die' he is 
going to have a great deal more trouble in overcoming his repugnance 
and cause a great deal of trouble meanwhile. 


Leah