Sirius and Snape parallels again - Sirius' death (LONG) Posted by: "jkoney65"

[pippin_999]

No: HPFGUIDX 185132

 
> jkoney
> I guess we are disagreeing on the term manipulation. I don't believe 
> that you can make me do something I already want to do. You can try 
> to use it to your benefit but to me that is different than outright 
> manipulation. To me, that would be you convincing me to do something
 I don't already want to do.
> 
> There are always people willing to fight and die for a cause. That 
> doesn't make the leaders manipulative if they send them out to fight.
> 

Pippin:
Thanks for defining this issue so plainly. People do seem to be using
the word manipulation to mean any kind of indirect or emotional
persuasion, whereas I believe it applies only when the persuader is
being deceptive about his goal. 

For example, if I walk into a car dealership, I fully expect that the
salesmen will do all sorts of subtle things to make me feel good about
buying a car, and those things may have more to do with my decision
than any reasoned argument...but that's not manipulation in my book,
because they're not deceiving me about their motives.  

Similarly, if I joined the army, I'd be influenced to feel positively
about obeying lawful orders and putting myself in harm's way for my
country's service. Now if the leaders of the army were actually
working against my country, I'd have been manipulated. But if their
cause is the one I think I'm  fighting for, then  they've been very
effective leaders but not manipulative ones, IMO. 

Harry was manipulated in that he presumed he was being groomed to face
Voldemort because he had a right to do so.  He did not know it was
because he was already in mortal peril from the soul bit. But I don't
think he was manipulated to love the wizarding world, or his friends
or Hogwarts, or to be brave enough to die for them. 

Pippin