Manipulation in Potterverse and in general /Tigana spoilers

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 185137

> Pippin:
> Thanks for defining this issue so plainly. People do seem to be 
using
> the word manipulation to mean any kind of indirect or emotional
> persuasion, whereas I believe it applies only when the persuader is
> being deceptive about his goal. 
<SNIP>
> Harry was manipulated in that he presumed he was being groomed to 
face
> Voldemort because he had a right to do so.  He did not know it was
> because he was already in mortal peril from the soul bit. But I 
don't
> think he was manipulated to love the wizarding world, or his friends
> or Hogwarts, or to be brave enough to die for them. 
 
Alla:
Yes, we are definitely disagreeing on what the manipulation is then. 
While Wiki can be very crappy for in-depth research IMO, I often find 
to be very useful for initial definition. And their definition of 
social manipulation is pretty much what I am using.
"A means of gaining control or social influence over others by 
methods which might be considered unfair. Social advantage may be 
sought through either manipulative or persuasive rhetorical 
arguments. "
When I decide whether character or person is being manipulated, I do 
not care if manipulator wants the person to do what that person in 
essence would have done himself. I care about two things – whether 
manipulator is in **control** of another person and whether the 
methods manipulator uses to make another person do staff is fair or 
not.

In Tigana prince Alessan enslaves wizard Erlein to secure his help in 
the battle against the villain. See to me it is completely irrelevant 
that Erlein is a decent guy and who IMO would have helped freedom 
fighters anyways if asked in a normal way. And does so at the end. 
What relevant to me is that Erlein was in the middle of his own 
business when he had a misfortune to meet Alessan and his gang and 
they tricked him, enslaved him and IMO even tortured him, when he 
tried escape the first night. I consider it a manipulation and worse 
and that is when Alessan to me goes completely down and never ever 
comes back up.  At the end Erlein is in control of his actions again 
and sure, when he chooses to help anyways ( God, I love this 
character more than any other in Tigana lol), he is not being 
manipulated, he is just to me being ten times better man than 
Alessan. So do I think he chose on his own? Yes, I think he did, 
however Alessan manipulated him into spending time with him and his 
gang IMO and forced him to follow them for quite some time. Therefore 
I am having a really hard time saying that it was not manipulation. 
Without being enslaved by Alessan Erlein would have never gotten to 
know those guys and never had the oportunity to make this choice in 
the first place IMO.

Anyways back to Potterverse, as I said I do think that Harry chose to 
follow Dumbledore's plan sacrificing him per se. I do think that was 
in him and that is partially why he was sorted in Gryffindor. 
However, I do think Harry was manipulated into doing so many things 
that he should not have been. Granted, we would have no stories 
without it, but again I think those are just two different angles to 
look at the story – external and internal. Without what I consider to 
be Dumbledore's manipulation of Harry going after Stone, we would 
have no story. However if the characters were real people, I think 
Dumbledore would have deserved to be fired **on the spot**, period 
after the first book. Without Occlumency lessons we would have no 
OOP, but I have no doubt that Dumbledore manipulated Snape into 
giving them. What I am trying to say is that even though I know that 
Harry chose on his own, I think he was manipulated that he was put in 
the circumstances of having to choose if that makes sense.
And of course Harry was not manipulated into loving Hogwarts and his 
friends that I agree with.


JMO,

Alla