James and Sirius as Bullies (WAS: student!Snape keeping Lupin's ...)

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 181194

> zgirnius:
> I am inclined to believe he does stand by as others use hexes, for 
> the most part, in the first five years at school. Those hexes 
might 
> be his, that I would consider reasonably likely both because he is 
> known to have invented some in that time frame, and because it 
would 
> form an alternative basis for Sirius's claims of his precocious 
Dark 
> Arts knowledge. 

Alla:

So basically you are arguing that Severus invented hexes but did not 
use them for five years? How likely is that that for five years such 
inventive student will not be tempted to ever try them?

Zgirnius:
My reasoning is based on the conversation with Lily 
> in "The Prince's Tale". When Snape brings up James' supposedly 
> unsavory behavior, Lily counters with Mulciber's. I find this a 
very 
> weak rejoinder, if we're speaking of someone else who (to 
paraphrase 
> Lily on James) goes around hexing people in the halls just because 
he 
> can.

Alla:

Why? I found it perfectly reasonable answer. Severus is talking 
about her friends and she is responding with criticizing his 
friends. If Snape was criticizing Lily, I would hope that she would 
answer with criticizing Snape and then would find it bizarre if she 
would not do that. But they are talking about each other's friends 
NOT about themselves.




> zgirnius:
> I don't see the relevance of this response. Whether Snape did 
things, 
> or others did things, does not alter what was actually done, by 
James 
> and Sirius together, to Bertram Aubrey. Unless you are proposing 
> Snape forged the record to which I refer?

Alla:

 How do we translate one hex into bullying ? Especially into 
bullying pattern? I mean if we consider what was happening between 
Marauders and Snape as special case of bullying or war and that 
people in Hogwarts hex each other on pretty routine basis. 

Do you think Twins bullied those whom they gave canary creams? I 
mean if for your bullying means hexing people with any hexes, then I 
will readily agree that half Hogwarts are bullies to each other, but 
I would think that something more serious under Hogwarts standard 
should happen to make a parallel with bullying?

And yes, Pensieve scene counts IMO.


> zgirnius:
> Again, I fail to see the relevance. If Snape hexed people too, it 
> does not change what James and Sirius were, to him and to others. 
Or 
> are you trying to simultaneously build a case against Snape? 

Alla:

Yes, that's my point. I see Snape who could dished it out to 
Marauders as much as he got. I just do not see how one can disregard 
his behavior when evaluating what they did to him. I mean one can; I 
am just saying that I cannot :)

Zgirnius:
For the 
> reasons I have explained above, I don't think he was active in the 
> way the two Marauders were, except after his breakup with Lily. 

Alla:

To reiterate - your reasons for not thinking that he was active was 
that Lily criticized his friends instead of him in response to him 
criticizing her friends? How this is proves that he was not doing 
stuff?

Zgirnius:
I 
> don't doubt he had some sort of social involvement with unpleasant 
> characters in Slytherin who did actively engage in bullying, and  
> enabled this behavior by helping to improve their repertoire.

Alla:

>From the moment we see little Snape we see him DOING stuff. Like 
killing flies ( I mean I was not sure for the longest time that it 
was Snape myself, but there is no doubt now, right?), like moving 
that tree and suddenly for five years he is just giving curses to 
Slytherins and not using them? Sorry, I am not buying this picture 
at all. And again, this is all because Lily criticized his friends 
instead of him?


> zgirnius:
> All I am arguing is that James and Sirius were schoolyard bullies, 
> and Severus was one of their targets. <SNIP>


Alla:

And I am arguing that Severus was not always a target but worthy 
opponent for the most part or at least often enough. I just refuse 
to look at only what Marauders did, but again for sure in Pensieve 
scene they ARE bullies and maybe there were other accidents too, I 
just do not think that Snape was just a target.

Montavilla47:
<SNIP>

I'm surprised Snape made through school at all.


Alla:

That sounds dramatic indeed. Snape may not have made it through 
school?