James and Sirius as Bullies (WAS: student!Snape keeping Lupin's ...)

[montavilla47]

No: HPFGUIDX 181199

> > zgirnius:
> > I don't see the relevance of this response. Whether Snape did 
> things, 
> > or others did things, does not alter what was actually done, by 
> James 
> > and Sirius together, to Bertram Aubrey. Unless you are proposing 
> > Snape forged the record to which I refer?
> 
> Alla:
>  How do we translate one hex into bullying ? Especially into 
> bullying pattern? I mean if we consider what was happening between 
> Marauders and Snape as special case of bullying or war and that 
> people in Hogwarts hex each other on pretty routine basis. 

Montavilla47:
Well, it's one more hex than we see Snape doing in any of the 
memories (unless you want to count the flies).  

Plus, we have Harry getting that "regular jolt" as he recognizes
the names of his father and godfather while working on the 
detention cards.  I translate "regular jolt" as that approximately
every X number of cards (5?  10?   20? Take your pick), Harry
finds one with a Marauder name on it.  Or two names.  Or 
four.

Now, mind you, not all the detentions are probably for 
hexing students.  Some of them might be for arranging the 
suits of armor into rude positions, or putting someone's 
books at the top of a parapet, or writing "Binns Sucks!" on
the blackboard before class.  But it's likely that many of 
the card were based on hexing others, given, as you say,
the routine hexing that seems to go on at Hogwarts.

Again, if we're going to be strict about what we see on the 
page about the Marauders and Snape, at this point we have:

Detention cards that indicate hexing of other students:

James and Sirius:  1.
Snape: 0.


Alla:
> Do you think Twins bullied those whom they gave canary creams? I 
> mean if for your bullying means hexing people with any hexes, then I 
> will readily agree that half Hogwarts are bullies to each other, but 
> I would think that something more serious under Hogwarts standard 
> should happen to make a parallel with bullying?
> 
> And yes, Pensieve scene counts IMO.


Montavilla47:
I suppose we really ought to a working definition of what constitutes 
bullying.  I don't think it can be limited to hexing.  So, in the interests 
of common ground, I'd like to throw out a few guidelines...

Two-on-one hexing:  e.g., James and Sirius on Bertram; James and Sirius 
on Snape; Draco, Crabbe, and Goyle on Harry (although no one was hexed 
in that incident).

Hexing a younger student (younger meaning from an earlier year): No one
that I recall.  Ginny hexes people older than she is.   Fred and George 
try out their candies on people younger, but I don't think that's hexing.

Hexing with no immediate provocation:  James and Sirius on Snape.  
Ginny with Zacharias (on the train).  

Pranking: Sirius with Snape and Lupin.  Fred and George with Dudley. 
Draco stealing Neville's remembrall.  Fred and George jumping out at
Ginny to scare her.  Fred and George transfiguring Percy's badge so that
its says "Huge Bighead" instead of "Head Boy."  Fred and George sending
Percy dragon dung in the mail.

Namecalling: "Weasley is our King."  "Idiot boy."  "Our new... celebrity."
"Potty"  "Potter stinks."  "Weatherby."

Identify theft:  The trio with Crabbe, Goyle, and Bulstrode (attemped).

Poisoning:  The trio with Crabbe and Goyle, Snape with Trevor.  Fred and
George with Neville and Dudley.  Whoever bet McLaggen that he could
eat a pound of a doxy eggs.

Property Theft:  The Trio with Snape's stores.  Draco with Neville's remembrall.
Draco, Crabbe and Goyle with Harry's pasties (attempted).  Luna's housemates
with her various things.

Spying:  Snape with the Marauders (especially Lupin).  Harry with Draco in CoS,
and in HBP.

I'm sure that I'm missing stuff.  Anyone else want to add something to the 
list?

 
> > zgirnius:
> Or 
> > are you trying to simultaneously build a case against Snape? 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Yes, that's my point. I see Snape who could dished it out to 
> Marauders as much as he got.   I just do not see how one can disregard 
> his behavior when evaluating what they did to him. I mean one can; I 
> am just saying that I cannot :)


Montavilla47:
Can you give textev for this Snape who dished it out to the 
Marauders as much as he got.  Because, while I can gladly
embrace such an idea, I don't think we can get there by 
direct evidence.  

The only "behavior" of Snape's towards the Marauders that
we know about is:

1. He was contemptuous about Gryffindor as a house one
would want to attend.  (Namecalling, if "brawny" is an insult.)

2. He tried to get them in trouble by investigating under the
Willow.

3. He sometimes hexed James in seventh year.

Ooops.  Forgot one.

4.  He existed.

> Alla:
> 
> From the moment we see little Snape we see him DOING stuff. Like 
> killing flies ( I mean I was not sure for the longest time that it 
> was Snape myself, but there is no doubt now, right?), like moving 
> that tree and suddenly for five years he is just giving curses to 
> Slytherins and not using them? Sorry, I am not buying this picture 
> at all. And again, this is all because Lily criticized his friends 
> instead of him?

Montavilla47:

What we see little Snape doing (in book order, rather than 
chronologically):

1. Crying in the corner.
2. Watching Lily perform magic and telling her that she's magical.
3. Telling Lily about magic, getting mad at Petunia, and (perhaps 
accidently) causing a tree branch to fall on her.
4. Waiting for the train.
5. Talking to Lily on the train and speaking contemptuously about
her muggle sister.  Responding to comments by James.  Getting 
tripped and insulted.
6. Getting sorted into Slytherin.
7. Trying to ride a bucking broomstick while an unidentified girl
laughs at him.
8. Trying to convince Lily that Lupin is a werewolf, not denying that
his housemate tried to do something "evil" to Mary, trying to 
keep Lily from becoming friends with James, expressing relief when
she calls James a "toerag."
9. Getting hexed two-on-one by James and Sirius, calling Lily a 
"mudblood."
10. Trying to apologize to Lily for insulting her and being rebuffed.
11. Zapping insects with some kind of a spell.

Added to that, we know that some time after 7, Severus was inventing 
hexes and a dark curse, and that he made notes about making
potions that improved upon the standard text.


> Montavilla47:
> <SNIP>
> 
> I'm surprised Snape made through school at all.
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> That sounds dramatic indeed. Snape may not have made it through 
> school?

Montavilla47:
Given the level of animosity we see James and Sirius show *in public*
towards Snape, and the tactical advantages they had--advantages
that allowed them to target him any time he was alone (the map) with
the element of surprise (the cloak), yes, I think it is remarkable that
the two worst things they did to him was a public humilation (just 
before an important exam) and an attempted werewolf mauling.