James and Sirius as Bullies (WAS: student!Snape keeping Lupin's ...)

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 181200

Montavilla47:
<SNIP>
Again, if we're going to be strict about what we see on the
page about the Marauders and Snape, at this point we have:

Detention cards that indicate hexing of other students:

James and Sirius: 1.
Snape: 0.

Alla:

Yep, that we do in the detention boxes picked by Snape. I read the 
explanation upthread that it still supposed to be objective, but I 
did not quite get the reasoning.


> Montavilla47:
> I suppose we really ought to a working definition of what 
constitutes 
> bullying.  I don't think it can be limited to hexing.  So, in the 
interests 
> of common ground, I'd like to throw out a few guidelines...
<SNIP of the examples, read them UPTHREAD>

Alla:

I snipped the examples, but I have a question, do you consider all 
of them bullying or not bullying?


> Montavilla47:
> Can you give textev for this Snape who dished it out to the 
> Marauders as much as he got.  Because, while I can gladly
> embrace such an idea, I don't think we can get there by 
> direct evidence.  
> 
> The only "behavior" of Snape's towards the Marauders that
> we know about is:
> 
> 1. He was contemptuous about Gryffindor as a house one
> would want to attend.  (Namecalling, if "brawny" is an insult.)
> 
> 2. He tried to get them in trouble by investigating under the
> Willow.
> 
> 3. He sometimes hexed James in seventh year.
> 
> Ooops.  Forgot one.
> 
> 4.  He existed.
>


Alla:

Oh, of course we do not have anything as dramatic to show that Snape 
could dish it out back to Marauders as we have Pensieve scene. But 
for me the circumstantial evidence are enough to conclude that he 
indeed could.

The biggest piece of circumstantial evidence to me was not even the 
Sectusemptra, to me the biggest piece was the fact that as it turns 
out Snape was hit with Levicorpus in Pensieve scene. The hex of his 
own invention was turned back at him. To me it implies that while he 
was a victim in that scene, he certainly could have been an agressor 
before. IMO of course.

And frankly I am not surprised that we do not have anything as 
dramatic piece of dirt on Snape in his youth as we have on Marauders 
in their dealings with each other. I cannot quite explain why I feel 
this way, it has to do with character's ambiguousness. No, I do not 
think that Snape was unresolved at the end, of course he was. I 
promise I will come back to this part later when I am able to 
explain it more clearly.

There is another piece of circumstantial evidence to me is that 
Snape was hanging out with people who all ended up being DE. So, 
yeah, I assume that he was doing bad stuff with them and to other 
people too.

I mean, if he did not end up being DE, I probably would not add this 
one, but he was AND we still do not know when he was being 
recruited. Since it is possible that Draco got the mark while in 
school ( I know it is not given but surely we agree that this is a 
possibility), I would think it is possible that he got the mark 
while in school as well.

There is another piece of circumstantial evidence to me and this is 
Snape's dealings with Neville. To me it shows a bully in all his 
glory. And again, I am not even touching his dealings with Harry, 
because even though I find them despicable, you could tell me, oh he 
just bullied the kid because his father bullied him all the time. 
Not that I buy it as justification, but at least I can see it as he 
is not a bully all the time.

Since we did not find out anything personal in Snape's dealings with 
Neville ( that he wanted him to be strong as second child of the 
prophecy or something like this), I conclude that Snape always had 
in him to bully people and I see no reason to think that he was 
different in school.

Again, of course all circumstantial inference and not nearly as 
dramatic as the piece of dirt that we got on Marauders, but more 
than enough for me.


Montavilla47:
Given the level of animosity we see James and Sirius show *in public*
towards Snape, and the tactical advantages they had--advantages
that allowed them to target him any time he was alone (the map) with
the element of surprise (the cloak), yes, I think it is remarkable 
that
the two worst things they did to him was a public humilation (just
before an important exam) and an attempted werewolf mauling.

Alla:

Maybe that shows that no matter how high the level of animosity was 
between them, Snape was NOT their only reason for living and they 
were not obsessed with monitoring his every step? ( And I know you 
did not said that he was their only reason for living, but the 
argument that it is surprising how he made it through school to me 
implies it)

JMO,

Alla