James and Sirius: ringleaders (was Re: Student!Snape and bullying (WAS student!

[Zara]

No: HPFGUIDX 181222

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" <a_svirn at ...> wrote:
>
> > Potioncat:
> > What I don't understand is why JKR made her future heroes 
> schoolyard 
> > bullies. And why she turns it all upside down by having Lily say 
> that 
> > what they do is not as bad as what someone else is doing.

zgirnius:
I did not find that what we saw of Lily made her opinion 
authoritative. That scene did not overturn anything for me. In fact, 
it was the next scene that convinced me Rowling did not intend to 
overturn anything, when I realized the prank preceded the worst 
memory. <g>

It's not that I think Lily is a poor judge of character, it is that 
she makes her judgment without, evidently, having much idea what 
James and his mates had been getting up to. So I'm left 
with, "Mulciber is evil" as a statement I do accept, but the implied 
comparison, I reject. I have my doubts that Mulciber got up to 
something that had a decent likelihood of resulting in Mary's death 
if it had succeeded. Whereas at least two characters assert that what 
Sirius, James's mate, had got up to and Snape complained of in that 
scene, could easily have resulted in Snape's death.

> a_svirn:
> Also Lupin said that Sirius realised the 
> enormity of what he had done, and it's after seeing his expression 
> James (who had known nothing about the prank) put two and two 
> together and rescued Snape. 

zgirnius:
This is not how I remember the conversation. Where in the Shrieking 
Shack scenes is this bit explained? I had the impression we don't 
quite exactly know how James found out, and that Sirius never 
realized the enormity of his actions. (He does not seem to realize it 
still, in PoA).

> a_svirn:
> James also does not look like someone who nobly put petty school 
> grudges behind. 

zgirnius:
Indeed not. This leaves us to imagine James 'growing out of it' at a 
later point the author does not show us, on the strength of his 
friends's testimony, if that works for us. (It does not, for me). Or 
it leaves us with James 'growing out of it' in the sense of leaving 
school behind and going on to bigger and better things as a member of 
the Order/father. 

I think the latter is her point. James at his worst is not an 
irredeemable murderer a la Voldemort, he is a school kid who is brave 
and loyal to his friends, cruel to his enemies, and picks on 
his 'inferiors' (any students who lack the popularity, magical power, 
or group of frieds to keep him off) for the sheer fun of it.

Even if James would have left Snape to die, get bitten, or get mauled 
in a hypothetical situation in which none of his friends would have 
been harmed by this, his action in rescuing Snape (even for the 
purpose of saving Lupin and Sirius's bacon) was still brave and 
indicative of his loyalty to his friends. It's this side of him that 
his friends see and care about; it is this side of him that later 
makes him a 'hero' in the Order.

I see a parallel between Draco and James. He shows this same better 
side when he tries to rescue Goyle in the RoR during DH. It's just a 
bigger surprise for us because we have not heard Pansy and Gregory 
telling us what a swell guy he really is for six books. And of 
course, if Draco had done any 'heroic' successful ventures for his 
side, we would consider him a villain, not a hero, owing to the 
entire context. James picked the right side.

> a_svirn:
> Lupin who had just been betrayed by one at least of 
> his precious friends bantered with them about werewolves as if 
> nothing had happened.

zgirnius:
Not quite as if nothing had happened. He did show some signs of 
nervousness. But if you mean that it seemed not to strain his 
relationship with Sirius in any way, I agree. Just another 
illustration of the lengths Lupin will go to to be liked.

Post DH, I also wonder what was going on in Lupin's mind during the 
SWM. The furrowed brow, etc... I assumed, for sure, that he 
disapproved of his friends' actions and just lacked the backbone to 
tell them to leave off. But maybe he was also nervous, worried that 
Snape might be provoked into blurting out the truth about him?