James and Sirius: ringleaders (was Re: Student!Snape and bullying (WAS student!

[potioncat]

No: HPFGUIDX 181262

 
> zgirnius:
> I did not find that what we saw of Lily made her opinion 
> authoritative. That scene did not overturn anything for me. In 
fact, 
> it was the next scene that convinced me Rowling did not intend to 
> overturn anything, when I realized the prank preceded the worst 
> memory. <g>

Potioncat:

CRASH!

The sound you just heard was Lily falling off her pedestal...and I 
didn't even know I had put her there. She seems the personification 
of autorial intent in this case. Merlin knows, I've ignored perceived 
authorial intent before.

Here, snipping and merging bits of Zgirnius's post:

 So I'm left 
> with, "Mulciber is evil" as a statement I do accept, but the 
>implied comparison, I reject. 
 
 Or 
> it leaves us with James 'growing out of it' in the sense of leaving 
> school behind and going on to bigger and better things as a member 
of 
> the Order/father. 
> ... he is a school kid who is brave 
> and loyal to his friends, cruel to his enemies, and picks on 
> his 'inferiors' (any students who lack the popularity, magical 
power, 
> or group of frieds to keep him off) for the sheer fun of it.

Potioncat:
Continuing with that idea, as bad as James was at Hogwarts (even 
leaving Snape out of it) he could have been that bad "for" the Order. 
And I love your wording, so I'll borrow it: brave, loyal to the 
Order, cruel to the DEs, picks on inferiors for the fun of it. 
(Wormtail, maybe Mundungus...) 

How did he ever become Head Boy? Rescuing Severus in 5th year 
wouldn't seem to be enough, given how little James chages at that 
point.


Zgirnius
> I see a parallel between Draco and James. He shows this same better 
> side when he tries to rescue Goyle in the RoR during DH. It's just 
a 
> bigger surprise for us because we have not heard Pansy and Gregory 
> telling us what a swell guy he really is for six books. And of 
> course, if Draco had done any 'heroic' successful ventures for his 
> side, we would consider him a villain, not a hero, owing to the 
> entire context. James picked the right side.

Potioncat:
That was the big surprise, wasn't it? DD had said that Draco and 
Harry reminded him of James and Severus, but Harry never expected to 
be Severus in that comparison.
 

> Zgirnius:
> Post DH, I also wonder what was going on in Lupin's mind during the 
> SWM. The furrowed brow, etc... I assumed, for sure, that he 
> disapproved of his friends' actions and just lacked the backbone to 
> tell them to leave off. But maybe he was also nervous, worried that 
> Snape might be provoked into blurting out the truth about him?

Potioncat:
Very good point. If Severus could have burst out with Filthy Mudblood 
at Lily---of all people---he certainly could have been provoked into 
Filthy Werewolf for Remus. I'm not sure if this idea changes how I 
feel about Lupin, although knowing it's after the Prank, I'm more 
disappointed in him than I had been in the past.

We started off in the saga, thinking of James as a hero and Snape as 
a villian. Slowly that seems to reverse. James of course, is never to 
the point of being villian, and JKR stops short of calling Severus a 
hero. But I wish we'd seen something redeeming about James. The more 
I think of it, the more like Draco he becomes.