Slytherins come back WAS: Re: My Most Annoying Character

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 180194

> Magpie:
> <SNIP>
> 
> In one 
> > case we've got Dumbledore telling us what happened, so 
speculation 
> > assumes he's lying or leaving stuff out. In this sentence we're 
> > talking about a narrator the author's using to describe the scene 
> > with the author having even less reason to lie than Dumbledore 
> > andless room for speculation.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Huh? I see no difference whatsoever. For some reason speculating 
> based on Dumbledore answering Yes to Harry "you never killed if you 
> could help it" is a valid speculation. Never mind that as you said 
> there are no references to Dumbledore killing **anybody** directly 
> in canon. For some reason in this instance it is okay to assume 
that 
> Dumbledore lying or leaving stuff out. 

Magpie:
I said in both cases you're making something up. There is no specific 
murder that Dumbledore commits by his own hand that is canon, period. 
I'm just saying that with this sentence it's even more glaringly -- 
the sentence says something straightforward. If this were a basic 
reading comprehension question the answer would be obvious: Who do we 
see entering the school here? The answer would be exactly what's 
stated in the sentence. Not anybody you can imagine would also be 
there with an argument about how Harry for some reason couldn't 
recognize the people correctly or they've been described in 
misleading ways.

In the Harry/Dumbledore scene at least you've got Harry actually 
saying "You never killed somebody if you could help it" which would 
reasonably make you ask if he's implying he thinks Dumbledore killed 
people when he couldn't help it. Neither Dumbledore's killing people 
or Slytherins returning are canon--but compared to that sentence 
about Slughorn's return the line about Dumbledore killing people is a 
festival of ambiguity. Not because Dumbledore killing somebody by his 
own hand is clear canon, but because the sentence about Slughorn's 
return to the school doesn't even hint at Slytherins other than 
Slughorn doing anything. 

Alla:
> BUT when the crowd lead by Slytherin head of the house described 
> VAGUELY, it is not Okay to assume that narrator left staff out?????

Magpie:
It's not described vaguely at all! If it's left out it's not there. 
All the woman had to do to make this happen is actually say it 
happens, if it's not there it's not there-it IS THERE in her 
interview question. It is not there in canon anywhere. At best, this 
is like Hermione's sister--never got into canon, so is not canon 
because she left stuff out. There's a point where "leaving stuff out" 
means "did not happen" and "not part of the story" and this is pretty 
much it. How am I suppose to have any actual book at all if "left 
stuff out" means anything can just change? This is going beyond 
expecting me to interpret characters or situations the way they work 
for me--this is telling me that my basic language skills don't count. 

Alla:
> Why is that? Harry never had been known for remembering many names, 
> he sees Slughorn already, so many other things are on his mind - 
> finding diadema, etc. You think he will be oh so very concerned 
with 
> whether Blaise and Theo and others returned to fight?

Magpie:
Yeah, I bloody well do. He's telling me shopkeepers and families of 
students already there just came in, not to mention Slughorn and 
Charlie. It has nothing to do with what Harry cares about, this is 
the narrator telling us what's there. It has nothing to do with 
Harry's alleged inability to remember names or how much Harry cares 
about Slytherin (and he would certainly notice the return of Blaise 
Zabini fighting at his side as much or more so than the people he 
mentions here). It's not even Harry talking, it's the narrator, the 
same voice whose job it is to describe for *us* what's happening in 
the battle, and manages to do so.

There's no reason whatsoever JKR couldn't just say the Slytherins are 
returning in this scene. She didn't. For some reason now she's 
changed it in her mind to be her "high point" of the battle that's 
all about the *Slytherins* crashing in. I have no idea why she 
changed it, but I've got the original text and that's not what 
happened. 
> 

All:
> He already experienced change of heart about Regulus, he sees 
> Slughorn, who was running before coming back, you think he should 
> definitely mention names of the students? That this be oh so very 
> important for him? Not in my opinion.

Magpie:
He doesn't have to mention any names, but anyway that doesn't matter. 
I don't have to defend my interpretation against extreme positions 
for Harry in this scene for my interpretation. My interpretation is 
what's actually on the page. The sentence says Slughorn has appeared 
with shopkeepers and people connected to non-Slytherin students who 
stayed. That's what it says, that's what happened. Harry's mindset 
only comes into it when you start with the proposition that there are 
actually Slytherins there that are not in the text and then have to 
find a reason why they're not actually in the text, which there's no 
reason to do.

 
> Magpie:
>  JKR might have faults as a writer, but 
> > she's got the basic competence. If she got information across in 
> this 
> > convoluted a way in any other part of the book the story would be 
> > incoherent. When Ron enters a room she says Ron entered the room, 
> she 
> > doesn't say: the door opened and there stood Angelina's boyfriend-
-
> > meaning Ron.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> The way you described - sure. But if for example Harry would have 
> lied wounded in the hospital and author would describe the 
redheaded 
> crowd led by Molly to see him, you bet I would assume Ron was among 
> them.

Magpie:
That's not what I said. There is no "red-headed crowd" here that we'd 
of course recognize as the Weasleys. This is Ron Weasley entering a 
room where Harry is fully awake and the author, rather than saying 
that Ron has entered the room, saying that Angelina's boyfriend has 
entered the room and that's supposed to be Ron. Or that Harry, fully 
awake and in possession of his senses, enters the room followed by 
Fudge and some Ministry employees--and that means the Weasleys. 

-m