House elves and some spoilers for Swordspoint WAS: realistic solutions

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 180786

> > Magpie:
> > Who said anything about wanting to be a house elf? It's being a 
house 
> > elf owner that's the sweet deal. Should they replace Kreacher 
when he 
> > dies? Sure, why not? Wouldn't you miss the wonderful cooking and 
> > somebody doing all your cleaning for you?
> 
> Pippin:
> Yup, that's why I pay people to do those things <g> 
> 
>  If Harry can't find an Elf who wants paying, he can hire a wizard 
who's 
> good at Householdey spells, or maybe a Squib like Filch. It's not 
like
> Harry can't afford it.

Magpie:
Or maybe he'll just find some other house elf who doesn't want paying 
but could use a kind master like Harry. Then he'd have the same good 
life Kreacher does. As far as the book's considered, we just end with 
Harry being a good master to his elf that he owns, period. Having an 
elf is a lot more pleasant than hiring a Sqiub like Filch--far 
better, in fact. And it's better than hiring a Wizard. For the elf 
owner, it's the sweetest deal around.

> > Magpie:
> > Exactly why I think owning a slave is problematic whether the 
slave 
> > is happy or willing or not. But I doubt JKR would say Harry or 
> > Hermione couldn't be trusted with the responsibility.
> 
> Pippin:
> ::splutters:: but isn't that exactly what isolating the issue of the
> slaves' happiness from the issue of slavery does? Allow us to
> examine whether owning a slave is problematic whether the 
> slave is happy or not? 

Magpie:
Only if the book actually suggests the problem exists. In HP it 
certainly shows that there's a problem if you're a bad Wizard like 
Lucius, but no I don't see any indication that there's any problem 
with Dumbledore or Harry or Hermione owning a slave. And given the 
pov that comes through in a lot of the book that seems pretty 
consistent--power should be held by the good guys.

Pippin: 
> Harry had to accept  the responsibility and so he makes the
> best of it; that's Harry's way. 

Magpie:
You make it sound as if "making the best of it" is Harry trying to 
deal with Kreacher with a smile on his face. In fact it's more like 
he's "having the best of it"--having Kreacher wait on him with a 
smile is great and not a sacrifice for Harry at all.

Pippin:
But would anyone say he's never going
> to lose his temper with Kreacher, never going to give a command
> that Kreacher can't obey, always be quick enough to prevent
> Kreacher from punishing himself, never be fooled into letting
> Kreacher obey someone who would mistreat him, never tire
> of Kreacher's ways nor fail  to support him  if he becomes 
> too old or sick to work?

Magpie:
I don't remember Harry worrying about these things, and given how 
great I hear this Harry Potter fellow is, no I don't think he'll ever 
really have a problem with this. Yeah if he makes a mistake (not that 
I think he would) it'll be a shame that Kreacher has to punish 
himself--but good old Harry will no doubt swoop in to stop him if 
that happens because he's a good guy. 

Iow, sure I think there's plenty of groundwork here for somebody to 
write a fanfic about Harry's house elf ownership leading to dark and 
terrible things for Harry, but unless JKR writes this particular 
Darkfic I will stick with the impression that Harry and Kreacher will 
be perfectly happy in their arrangement with Harry not having had any 
moral disintegration at all, as I believe you agreed with. The fact 
that *I* can see problems with house elf ownership even if you're a 
good person doesn't mean the author is dramatizing that problem. 
There are plenty of things that I see as problems the author doesn't 
seem to see as problems.

Pippin: 
> Of course Kreacher loves Harry and would forgive him any lapses
> (I hope!) But love doesn't always last. And House Elves don't always
> love their masters. Kreacher certainly didn't love Sirius one bit, 
and
> I doubt he would have changed his mind if Sirius had been nicer to
> him. Who can say whether Kreacher will always love Harry?

Magpie:
The book ends with Kreacher loving Harry with no end in sight. I 
can't discuss this scenario as having anything to do with canon when 
it's not there. Again, these are all perfectly valid things for me to 
wonder about outside of canon, sure. But that doesn't make them 
written into the story. I could just as easily argue against this 
ever happening at all--I honestly couldn't imagine it being written 
that way by JKR. Harry's made Kreacher do things that were painful to 
him before--but only for the greater good of course!

Pippin:
> 
> All in all, it's a heavy-duty commitment to undertake for the sake
> of domestic services, IMO. I don't envy Harry his sandwich. 

Magpie:
Me neither. But I don't see Harry worrying about it. Nothing he can 
do, right? So he might as well have the sandwich. And if he maybe 
thinks he should get the sandwich himself he can tell himself that 
Kreacher would be hurt to hear he troubled himself about it rather 
than ordering him around. Any time he enjoys his power or the 
convenience he can just tell himself he's doing it for Kreacher. 

 
> > Magpie:
> > How is this supposed to be relevent? I don't see Harry's final 
> > thoughts on his house elf reading at all like an ominous note of 
> > Harry being on his way to alcoholism by ending the book reaching 
for 
> > a drink. I don't read any hints of danger in the text in Harry 
owning 
> > Kreacher.
> 
> Pippin:
> It's relevant in that not labeling slave owners as wicked is not 
the same
> thing as seeing nothing wrong with slavery. Even if you do think 
that
> something is wicked, the moral approach may not be the best
> one to take. I'll give another example: vegetarianism. You could
> be against eating meat on moral grounds, but feel that the best way
> to persuade non-vegetarians is to emphasize the health benefits.

Magpie:
So creating a situation that's heavy on sympathy and justification 
for slave-owning is a stronger argument against slavery even though 
she doesn't ever dramatize all this stuff? I don't see it. I doubt 
she really has to worry much about trying to pursuade the part of her 
audience that's pro-slavery since she can probably assume she's 
writing to what would be vegetarians here.

Pippin:
> 
> The hint of danger in the text is what happened to Sirius.
> Sirius didn't see any danger in owning Kreacher. He was not a cruel
> man and believed in treating House Elves well generally. He never
> perceived himself as a bad master. As far as he was concerned, it
> was  Kreacher who was being a bad elf.  
> 
> Would rules for better treatment, such as Apocryphal!Hermione 
> might institute at the DRCoMC,  prevent another Sirius/Kreacher
> debacle? I don't think so.  

Magpie:
That's Sirius. Harry, otoh, learns that lesson about treating the 
House Elf well and it works splendidly--all without freeing the elf. 
Harry is the good master. 

Would rules about treatment stop something like what happened with 
Sirius? No, probably not since rules don't do much in this universe 
(though to be honest I wouldn't be surprised if laws passed by 
Hermione were more helpful than any passed now, since the idea of 
laws tends to be inconsistent). However, none of this says that it's 
not perfectly fine for Harry, who is superior to Sirius, to own a 
slave. Heck, Harry was already trickier than Sirius when he was 
ordering around Angry!Kreacher in HBP. He made sure not to give him 
any loopholes to work against him, but he still used him as a slave--
even with Dobby volunteering for the same job.


Pippin:
Until House Elves are 
> allowed to choose their own masters and can decide on their own to 
> leave if they're unhappy, until they're allowed to be unhappy 
without 
> punishing themselves, until, in other words, they are free,
> they will be a danger to the whole society.

Magpie:
Kreacher, however, is happy with Harry--he has "chosen" his master. 
The fact that they can't be unhappy without punishing themselves is 
unpleasant but as far as we know there's nothing Master Harry can do 
about it. And I don't see how all this leads up to "until they are 
free" they are a danger to the society since it just runs you right 
into the same problem as before, which is that they don't want to be 
free. Harry and Kreacher have solved all these problems in their 
relationship--Kreacher is happy with his master and so is not unhappy 
and may never have to punish himself again. So what's the problem? 
Harry would no doubt let Kreacher free if he wanted to be free. But 
since he's really better off as a slave given his psychology Harry 
will make the best of it and be waited on. 

-m