House elves and some spoilers for Swordspoint WAS: realistic solutions

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 180881

 > Magpie:
> > The only fundamental change is the way you say you see yourself. 
> > Nothing has changed in Snorty's situation until her freedom is 
> > actually granted for real.
> 
> Pippin:
> No. Something has fundamentally changed if Snorty has the right to
> her freedom if she wishes it. 

Magpie:
Unless she should happen to wish it at a time when it's really not 
convenient for me to grant it. Because I still have to grant it. 
She's still a slave. If she doubts it, she can try disobeying an 
order of mine. 

I think if you want to be the awesome slave owner who doesn't 
actually own slaves, you have to free them. I know that elves make 
that very difficult and I sympathize with good Wizards who can't just 
free them and be done with it. But until the elves are free, they're 
not free. 

Pippin:
That's the kind of reform Hermione and 
> Dumbledore would like to see. It's true they don't free Kreacher or
> allow him to choose another master, but  though house elf slavery
> was exploited to keep him  captive, it was not the purpose. 
> No leader would allow valuable secrets to be passed to the enemy 
> in wartime if he could help it,  whether the spy was free or 
unfree, 
> adult or child, human or otherwise.   If I gave aid and comfort to
> the enemy in wartime, or even looked like I might, I'd  probably  
lose 
> my freedom too. 
> Marietta was branded and then obliviated.  Kreacher's lucky to 
have  
> got off with house arrest.

Magpie:
Yeah, it's true they don't free Kreacher to allow him to choose 
another Master. It really makes no difference that exploiting house 
elf slavery wasn't "the purpose." Of course it wasn't the purpose, it 
was the convenient means to an end--Hermione and Dumbledore's end. 
Not the slave's end. I'm sure most stuff that's done to House Elves 
is done as a means to an end. No need to passionately defend they did 
it or come up with unrelated stuff that might have been worse. I know 
why they did it. I don't argue with them doing it. I'm saying that 
they could do it because Kreacher was a slave. Like our hypothetical 
Snorty until she's actually freed. So if it were wartime and Snorty 
came and said hey, she's going to take you up on that offer and work 
for the Death Eaters, you could do the same thing to her as was done 
to Kreacher. He's not under house arrest; he's a slave.

Or to use another analogy, if John says he would totally marry Mary 
if she wanted to get married, that does not make John and Mary 
married. 

Pippin: 
> There's a word for people who think slaves should be given freedom
> on demand. It's "abolitionist."

Magpie:
I believe abolitionists thought slavery should be abolished 
completely. Hence the name.

SSSusan:
I still feel there *is* something different between RW human slavery
and what we see in WW house elfhood – at least in those cases, like
at Hogwarts, where freedom has been freely offered and declined,
especially if the master truly *does* wish to give the freedom but
doesn't want to turn out an elf who doesn't want to be turned out. I
will continue to say I sure wish JKR would have given us an alternate
term/word/concept for this, because I think the house elf desire to
serve and to not be freed complicates the use of "slavery" as we use
it in the RW.

Magpie:
The difference imo is that house elves make better slaves than most 
people because they love it and aspire to it. Isn't that the 
difference here? Not only do they make it hard by appealing to our 
sympathy by being so sad at the prospect of being freed, but they 
make such great slaves the way they punish themselves and are happy 
all the time. 

But I'm glad there isn't an alternate word or concept because I think 
it would just be a euphamism for slave owning. I know that Harry has 
a different attitude towards house elves than Lucius Malfoy, but he 
has the same power over Kreacher as Lucius had over Dobby. That power 
is different than with human slaves, but it actually does I believe 
bring to life plenty of the same feelings as human slaves and 
servants in more strict class systems do. I don't think it's unusual 
for slave owners to want to ultimately erase the institution of 
slavery from their understanding of themselves.

-m