House elves and some spoilers for Swordspoint WAS: realistic solutions

[cubfanbudwoman]

No: HPFGUIDX 180886

Magpie:
> I'm sure most stuff that's done to House Elves is done as a means 
> to an end. No need to passionately defend they did it or come up 
> with unrelated stuff that might have been worse. I know why they 
> did it. I don't argue with them doing it. I'm saying that they 
> could do it because Kreacher was a slave. Like our hypothetical 
> Snorty until she's actually freed. So if it were wartime and Snorty 
> came and said hey, she's going to take you up on that offer and 
> work for the Death Eaters, you could do the same thing to her as 
> was done to Kreacher. He's not under house arrest; he's a slave.
> 
> Or to use another analogy, if John says he would totally marry Mary 
> if she wanted to get married, that does not make John and Mary 
> married. 

SSSusan:
I think I see your point here.  It's the idea that, even if the owner 
were 99.9% committed to letting Snorty go -- she really *meant* that 
offer of freedom and only keeps Snorty around because Snorty really, 
really did not want to leave -- just the fact that she *could* change 
her mind and say, "Nope, sorry, you CAN'T go" at the point where 
Snorty now wants to, makes a difference.  I see that.  And you're 
right that, legally, it appears there's no reason the owner couldn't 
make that reversal from what she offered initially.  


> Magpie:
> The difference imo is that house elves make better slaves than most 
> people because they love it and aspire to it. Isn't that the 
> difference here? Not only do they make it hard by appealing to our 
> sympathy by being so sad at the prospect of being freed, but they 
> make such great slaves the way they punish themselves and are happy 
> all the time. 

SSSusan:
Well, I'd totally disagree with the make-great-elves-because-they-
punish-themselves part.  Urg.  But, yes, it's the loving it and 
aspiring to it and, in the example I gave yesterday, DISINCLINATION 
to leave it when offered the true opportunity to, which makes the 
difference from human slavery (for me).  


Magpie: 
> But I'm glad there isn't an alternate word or concept because I 
> think it would just be a euphamism for slave owning. I know that 
> Harry has a different attitude towards house elves than Lucius 
> Malfoy, but he has the same power over Kreacher as Lucius had over 
> Dobby. That power is different than with human slaves, but it 
> actually does I believe bring to life plenty of the same feelings 
> as human slaves and servants in more strict class systems do. I 
> don't think it's unusual for slave owners to want to ultimately 
> erase the institution of slavery from their understanding of 
> themselves.

SSSusan:
And here is where we continue to differ.  I know WHY you are saying 
an alternative word/concept would just serve as a euphemism for 
slavery, and I know that you believe that to be so.  In my book, 
though, the "that power is different than with human slaves" part, 
plus the different nature of House Elves compared to human slaves, is 
what makes me wish there were a different term. 

Siriusly Snapey Susan