House elves WAS: realistic solutions

[Mike]

No: HPFGUIDX 180987

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/180981

> Magpie:
> Nobody's natural state can include being "owned" by anyone,
> because "property" is a man-made thing.

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/180983

> a_svirn:
> It can't be their *natural* anything because slavery is a 
> *social* institution, not natural element. They may be naturally
> predisposed to serve wizards, yes, but that does not what make
> them slaves. 


Mike:
Wait, let me get this straight! I've said that house elf slavery is 
different and the main reason was because of that whatever magical 
thing that forces them to serve wizards. You've insisted that it 
must still be called slavery and I've acquiesced to your term. Now, 
because I've allowed your term, you want to negate my "natural state" 
argument, because ownership and property are man-made concepts that 
pertain to "slavery". So, I guess I'm being forced back to my 
original position that It's. Not. Slavery.!! I'm not sure how that 
got us anywhere.

I will say that my concept of house elves'origins was explained very 
nicely by Goddlefrood in his post #180948, up thread. I think the 
compunction to serve humans was there in the beginning, nobody had to 
enchant them, they were enchanted that way from their first breath. 
*If* they were originally tied to the land, like hobs or brownies, 
wizards changed that and tied them to wizarding families, which they 
were probably serving exclusively anyway. The change would have been 
part of the move to wizarding secrecy, though probably done before 
the formal 1692 statute. Some time in there, wizards came up with 
this cockamamie idea of self-punishment for disobedience or speaking 
ill or revealing family secrets. And that's where they are today.

My canon? Every elf, including the freed Dobby has the compunction to 
serve wizards. Any elf can be freed, all they need to do is piss off 
their master to the degree that the master wants to free them. That 
they don't seem to want freedom may be culturally acquired - read: 
it's a disgrace - or it may simply be shortsightedness (thank you 
Magpie) through not realizing they can serve a different master. 
(BTW, Dobby knew perfectly well that Harry was not living in a 
wizarding household, so he could not serve Harry at #4 Privet Dr. He 
could and did serve Harry as well as Hogwarts after he signed on at 
Hogwarts. SERVED Harry, without pay).

House elves are magically compelled to serve wizards. That doesn't 
make them property, that defines their existence. When Sirius died, 
Kreacher had no Black left to serve, so his service reverted to the 
house, #12 GP. When Harry inherited the house, he became Kreacher's 
master. "You see, ... if you have indeed inherited the house, you 
have also inherited --" [Kreacher] <HBP p.51, US> Wizarding law gave 
Harry the house, house elf enchantment made Harry Kreacher's master 
by virtue of his succession to the Black legacy, the house of a house 
elf.


> > Mike:
> > Now you seem to be saying that it's *canon* that they are 
> > enslaved by wizard *law*. Are you saying there is canon that 
> > says that house elves are slaves by virtue of legal constraints?
> > Could you give me the canon that you're referencing?
> 
> a_svirn?
> ?!! The fact that Sirius can bequeath Kreacher? Obviously by 
> wizarding law it is a legal procedure. Obviously it is legal
> to own  house-elves.  

Mike:
I didn't ask that. I left my original question up there. I wanted to 
know where in canon it said that house elves became slaves through a 
wizarding law. Not that it's legal, I know it's legal.

But never mind. I'm sure I know canon as well as anyone (except Carol 
and Zanooda), and I know there is no point in canon where it says 
elves were free until wizards passed some law that made them slaves.



> a_svirn:
> You are not going to say that they have a chromosome
> responsible for wearing pillow-cases? That's a bit absurd.

Mike, who agrees and is therefore glad that you said it, not me ;)