Whom did Dumbledore torture and killed? WAS: Re: re:Scrimgeour/Werew

[Carol]

No: HPFGUIDX 181079

Angel wrote:
> And while we're on the subject...Dumbledore killed others too not
just Severus, maybe not as many as Voldemort, maybe not as directly
and cruelly as Voldemort, but kill as effectively as Voldemort - yes. 
>
> Take your pick.
> 
> Murders
> Ariana, Sirius, Gryndel, Severus, (the owl), Moody...etc...
> 
> Physical injuries
> the trio - PS, etc, etc, Katie in HBP, Ron in HBP, Rosmerta in HBP,
etc...
> 
> As I said earlier he may not have pointed his wand at these people
and shot green flames but by his manipulations he was as much
responsible for their demise as the actual doer of the killings. <snip>
> 
Carol responds:
I hope that you're not serious here. Snape was murdered by Voldemort,
and DD could not have intended his death since he needed him alive to
convey the self-sacrifice message to Harry. We don't know who killed
Ariana, but clearly DD wasn't intending to kill anyone; he would know
if he'd cast an AK. Sirius was murdered by Bellatrix. He was at the
Mom (and standing on the dais of the Veil) by his own choice. DD did
not send him there nor order Bellatrix to kill him. DD specifically
did *not* kill grindelwald (and hesitated for several years even to
fight him. Voldemort murdered him. Hedwig was killed by a stray curse
meant for Hagrid or through the sadistic impulse of a DE. Moody was
killed because he chose to escort the cowardly and unreliable
Mundungus, who Diaapparated because LV was trying to kill *him*.

As for injuries, Katie and ron were injured by Draco (who, of course,
meant to kil DD on Voldemort's orders) and Rosmerta was Imperiused by
Draco. You cannot blame one person for the actions of another even if
his choices contributed to those actions. You are confusing the
unintended consequences of characters' choices (a very frequent and
important motif in the HP books) with intention.

I can think of only one case when we can fairly blame one character
for the actions of another, and that's Voldemort's order to Wormtail
to kill Cedric. Of course, Wormtail is also to blame for obeying the
order rather than stomping on the thing in his arms or killing *it.*
(Maybe he was afraid of being eaten by Nagini if he disobeyed?) 

But we might as well blame Harry for killing Wormtail based on the
chain of events that followed his act of mercy in sparing Wormtail's
life. After all, if Harry hadn't spared him, Wormtail wouldn't have
cut off his hand to resurrect Voldemort, who wouldn't have given him
the cursed silver hand that strangled him when he hesitated to kill
Harry, feeling, perhaps, a flicker of remorse. Yep. That Harry is a
murderer and Wormtail is his victim. 

Almost every choice that Dumbledore and Harry and Snape made had
unintended consequences. For example, Dumbledore could have killed
Grindelwald. Had he done so, the trail would have grown cold and
Voldemort would not have searched for a man he knew to be already
dead. He might have been thwarted in his search for the Elder Wand or
he might have robbed Dumbledore's grave sooner. Either way, the story
would have had a different outcome. Or how about Harry's choice to
grab the photograph of young Grindelwald, which he dropped, giving
Voldemort the clue he needed to identify Grindelwald? If only he'd
kept on searching fruitlessly for an unknown blond boy (now obviously
an old man), he'd never have obtained the Elder Wand. It's all Harry's
fault, just like believing Voldemort's vision, which in turn leads to
Sirius Black's death, makes Black's death all Harry's fault. 

Please, before anyone jumps on me, I'm being facetious here.
Ironically, Harry's attempt to "save" his godfather (who is perfectly
safe in 12 GP) leads to Black's death, but Harry doesn't kill him or
even intend his death. (Neither, again ironically, does Voldemort or
Kreacher--or even Bella, till he shows up where he's not supposed to
be. And his innocent attempt to retrieve that photograph does lead to
the murder of Grindelwald (and move LV a step closer to resolving the
mystery of the Elder Wand), but that is in no way Harry's fault.

Carol, afraid that her complicated reasoning process is less than
clear but trying to distinguish between murder and unintended
consequences of both random choices and well-laid plans that gang aglay