PS/SS chapters 16/17 - post DH look

[Bex]

No: HPFGUIDX 181142


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cassandra Wladyslava"
<cassandra.wladyslava at ...> wrote:
>
> Bex:
> I think that DD knew Voldemort had infiltrated Hogwarts. By the end
> of
> the year, he probably knew it was Quirrell. The main reasons I think
> this are:
> <SNIP of the first two reasons go UPTHREAD to read them>
>
> Alla:
>
> Um, I think he knew as well and I think the most obvious hint is
> when we hear him telling Snape to keep an eye on Quirrell in
> Prince's memory.
>
> Cassie:
>
> I don't think this necessarily proves that he knew LV was posessing
> Quirrell.  I took it to mean he was suspicious of Quirrell stealing
the
> stone for HIMSELF.
>
> EDIT: (After reading some more of Chapter 17) I'm wondering about this
part:
> "It's almost like he thought I had the right to face *Voldemort  *if I
> could..." (Harry, SS pag 302)
>
> Not Quirrel. Voldemort. How could Dumbledore have thought Harry had
any
> chance of facing Voldemort unless he knew/suspected it was Voldemort
who was
> trying to steal the stone?
>
> Either way, it still begs the question: Why didn't Dumbledore DO
something
> about it?  Like confront/deal with Quirrell/LV? Certainly if he knew
LV had
> infilrated Hogwarts he'd want to keep him far away from Harry and the
other
> children - never mind the stone.

Bex:
You think DD didn't have people keeping an eye on Quirrell? DD is a
legilimens; surely he
would have an inkling that Quirrell has his master in the BACK OF HIS
HEAD!
Plus Voldemort has a very one-track mind (look at OotP). DD is keeping
him busy -
he's not interested in children if there's better fish to catch. He is
intent on surviving
and getting the stone.

> Alla:
>
> Right so here are my questions. Why would he give Harry invisibility
> cloak with the note just in case if he did not intend for them to go
> there? Why, why would he tell Harry how to work the Mirror of Erised
> if he wanted for Harry to have nothing to do with it?

Bex:
Not that he didn't want Harry to have anything to do with the mirror -
someone
has to get the stone out of it. DD chose Harry to be that one. It
required
someone innocent enough to just be happy he found the stone - most any
of the younger students could have done it, if someone told them how the
mirror worked.

And to counter, why would DD have taught Harry how to use the mirror if
he
wanted Harry to face Voldemort? Wouldn't it be much safer for the stone
to
stay in the mirror?

As for the cloak: So Harry gets his Dad's cloak. Does this mean DD wants
Harry to
go looking for an evil dark wizard who would leap at the chance to kill
him?
It means that DD thinks Harry can put the cloak to use - after all, it
is a very
useful item. Otherwise Filch or another student would find it. DD is
giving it
to Harry in case he needs it - for anything. No specific task in mind.
(All right,
that one is a bit weak, but there you go.)

"You did do the thing properly?" DD is expressing delight that Harry did
his homework. Did DD expect Harry to figure out what the stone was?
Let's see:

1. Harry was with Hagrid when the stone was retrieved.
2. Harry stumbled into the corridor (c/o Hermione, who unlocked the
door).
3. He realized Fluffy was hiding something (again, c/o Hermione).
4. He put 2 and 2 together about what was being hidden (which was good
reasoning).
5. Hagrid let Flamel's name slip (That could be DD's intention, but
Hagrid wasn't in
on that loop - he looked furious with himself for letting that go.)
6. Harry learns how to work the Mirror.
7. Harry figured out who Flamel was (which was a fluke from the cards -
after all
that time in the Library, and the trio still hadn't found out who Flamel
was?
And the only book he is referred in is "an enormous old book" that
Hermione
got out of the library. From the sound of it, it's not a book a first
year would be reading.
Was DD expecting them to ask Madam Pince?)
8. Harry learns from the centaurs that LV is trying to come back, and he
puts 2
and 2 together again that LV wants the stone.
9. Then Harry doesn't do anything until he decides Quirrell has broken.

DD was in control of Harry seeing the package get picked up, making
Hagrid
the person to pick it up (since he lets things slip every now and then),
and
possibly an outlet for Harry to determine who Flamel was (via Madam
Pince).
Otherwise, it's mere chance that Harry would get to the third floor
corridor,
notice that the dog was standing on a trapdoor, realize that what the
dog was
guarding was the little package from Gringotts, figure out what it was
(even
with Hagrid's help), figure out who is actually after it, and then
decide to do
something about it. He never would have a reason to get in the corridor
if he wasn't running from the Midnight Duel. It was a fluke that he
learned
about Flamel, unless he asked Madam Pince for a book on the guy and
actually got it. And then he had to learn from the centaurs that LV was
after the unicorns to stay alive (perhaps with a little more thought,
Harry
would have gotten this on his own).

And as for the mirror - was DD counting on Harry wandering the school
and just finding that classroom? Harry doesn't know where he is - he
just
ran like the dickens when Filch nearly caught him in the library. That
was
NOTHING but luck that Harry found the classroom. If Filch and Snape
hadn't almost cornered him in that room, he would have found his way
back
to the tower and not gone wandering again. Maybe DD was planning to show
him the mirror in the day over break?

I would think that if DD had wanted Harry to fight Quirrell or
Voldemort,
he wouldn't have left Hogwarts for a whole day - he would have flooed
to the Ministry on an urgent call, so as to stay near in case something
went dreadfully wrong. He's crazy, but that was a HUGE risk, putting
Harry into Devil's Snare, a dangerous chess set, against a troll, and in
a
life or death logic puzzle, and then LV's servant or LV himself,
depending
on what DD knew. Quirrell was an accomplished wizard - he could have
axed Harry in a heartbeat, even without LV in his head.

And was DD counting on Harry having Hermione and Ron with him?
The mirror was placed in the gauntlet for sure over the Christmas
holidays. (It may have been there before and moved out for the
Holiday). Fluffy was in place at the first of the year - the other traps
were probably set up that early as well. For sure, they were in place by
springtime, because Hagrid tells the trio who is helping protect it.
Surely
he wouldn't have left the stone unguarded that long - so did the other
professors change their enchantments to play to Harry's friends'
strengths?


> Cassie:
>
> "D'you think he meant you to do it?" said Ron. "Sending you your
father's
> cloak and everything?"
>
> "Well," Hermione exploded, "if he did - I mean to say - that's
terrible -
> you could have been killed."
>
> "No, it isn't," said Harry thoughtfully,"He's a funny man, Dumbledore.
I
> think he sort of wanted to give me a chance. I think he knows more or
less
> everything that goes on here, you know. I reckon he had a pretty good
idea
> we were going to try, and instead of stopping us, he ust taught us
enough to
> help. I don't think it was an accident he let me find out how the
mirror
> worked. It's almost like he thought I had the right to face Voldemort
if I
> could..."
>
> "Yeah, Dumbledore's off his rocker, all right," said Ron proudly.
>
> (SS pg 302)
>
> Of course, that doesn't ENTIRELY reveal Dumbledore's intentions. But
from
> that little peice of canon, it seems that at least Harry thought
Dumbledore
> meant him to find out all this stuff.  Maybe he (Dumbledore) didn't
actually
> expect Harry to try and fight Quirrellmort...just figure out about the
> stone, etc...I don't know.

Bex:
But Harry is usually wrong. The first time he gets a major plot point
right is in
HBP, when he thinks Draco is up to something. Harry thought that, but
we're
not getting a glimpse of DD's thoughts here. We're getting Harry's
perspective on
the events, which again, is usually wrong.

> Alla:
>
> Um, he basically convinced two human beings that they NEED to die.
> IMO it is very sinister, not to mention manipulative, but that's
> nothing new to me.
>
> I mean, can you show me ONE healthy human being that wants to die? I
> am not talking about not being afraid to die. Many people are not
> afraid of death, but I am yet to meet one healthy person who
> expressed a desire to die. IMO Flamel's age shows that he had no
> desire to die whatsoever, not yet IMO. And I am not even talking
> about immortality, his wife is with him, so it is not like he does
> not have anybody to share long life with. He invented the stone ,
> right? And here comes Dumbledore and says – OOPS, you lived
enough,
> stone must be destroyed. I don't know, sounds sinister to me.
>
> Cassie:
>
> From SS page 297: "They have enough Elixer to set their affairs in
order and
> then, yes, they will die"...."To one as young as you, I'm sure it
seems
> incredible, but to Nicholas and Perenelle, it really is like going to
bed
> after a very *very* long day." - Albus Dumbledore
>
> It is true that most healthy people do not WANT to die, but not many
people
> live to be 658/665. In this case, I can sort of see someone being
willing to
> die and not being suicidal or depressed or in pain or having any other
> health/mental problem that would make them want to die.
>
> We also don't know WHO decided the stone should be destroyed.  I see
two
> scenarios:
>
> 1. Dumbledore being manipulative. With what his true nature is I
wouldn't
> put it past him. "Nick, it's the only way to keep Voldemort from ever
> returning." "Think of the greater good, Nicholas."
> 2. Nicholas decided that, after all those measures had been taken and
LV
> still managed to almost procure the stone, the only way to protect the
stone
> was to destroy it.  Dumbledore may've said "Are you sure? If you do
> this...you know you and your wife will die." Then Nick may've said "I
> know...but if it's the only way to give Voldemort from
returning...Pern and
> I will make enough Elixer to set our affairs in order...we've
discussed it
> and decided that's what we would do if your protection failed...then
I'll
> destroy the stone."  "Are you sure?" "Yes. Besides...It's really like
going
> to bed after a very very long day..."
>
> Or something like that.  So it could've been manipulation or
sacrifice.

Bex:
I agree with Cassie. The Flamels are not suicidal - but they prepare
enough of
the elixir to get things in order. They are preparing to die. Convincing
them
to give up eternal life probably took a little leaning on DD's part -
they
may have just not been willing to convince themselves to take that first
step.
("Well, lets wait until after Christmas..." "The garden is blooming,
dear, how
can we miss this?") You know how we put off things that are unpleasant -
they
may have done the same. (And imagine being married to the same
person for over 6 centuries... shudder.)



> ~Cassie - Who is looking forward to the CoS post DH threads ^^~
>
>
Bex, who is as well, and is really surprised that this post grew so
quickly.



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