Characters inconsistencies (mostly Snape's) WAS :Re:What did you like

[montavilla47]

No: HPFGUIDX 183838

> Montavilla:
> <SNIP>
> What changes is his political affiliation. Lots of people change
> "sides" without changing their character. (Most of them
> would probably insist that it's the party that's changed--not
> them.) <SNIP>
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I strongly disagree. I mean sure Snape' s political affiliation had 
> changed, but I would argue that it is the showing of Snape changing 
> his values and therefore yes, to me it is a deep change in his 
> character. It is not like Snape changed say from being Democrat to 
> being Republican or vice versa, because well, those are just 
> political affiliations. To me it is more like Snape changing from 
> being member of KKK to being democrat or being republican or any 
> other party in any other country.

Montavilla47:
I think it can be argued both ways, so I'm not going to actually
disagree with you.  I think it depends on what you think Snape
was signing up for--and how much you think he's really changed.

It seems to me that JKR wants us to see Snape as being very
much in the DE-Pureblood idealogy, with his love for for
Lily being an exception to that.  He goes from "save Lily" 
to "save everyone I can save."  

I guess the question is whether you see that as a big change or
not.  I don't see it as much of a change as a development.  One that
many people achieve a lot quicker than Snape does... like, by about 
age twelve, but hey.

What I get from the Snape and the Malfoys is that they (like
Teen Dumbledore), are attracted to evil idealogies for whatever
reason (intellectual curiosity?  ambition?), until they realize that
those idealogies include treating others as less than, and that 
the "others" include people they care about.

For Dumbledore, the deal-breaker was his sister Ariana.  For 
Snape, the deal-breaker was Lily.  For the Malfoys, the deal-
breaker was Draco.

There are others who have no deal-breakers.  Barty Crouch, Jr.
gladly killed his father for Voldemort.  Bellatrix would have 
gladly sacrificed her nephew and she says she would sacrifice
her sons (although she doesn't have any to sacrifice).  And, of
course, Voldemort himself has no deal-breakers, because he
cares about nobody at all but himself.

Once the deal is broken, it's broken and the only question
left is whether or not you can extricate yourself from the 
evil idealogy.  And, of course, whether you can expand from
loving one person to loving many.

Getting back to JKR, she makes it pretty clear that people
joined the DEs for a variety of reasons, and that only some of
those reasons were because the individual DE enjoyed killing
and torturing.  She also has Sirius tell us that his brother 
didn't know what he was getting into.  I don't think it's 
stretching things to imagine that other DEs, including Lucius
and Severus, went into the organization with blinkers on.

We don't know if the Malfoys ever go from loving their 
immediate family members to loving strangers.  But I think
that loving one is radically different from loving no one--and
not so radically different from loving many.

Alla:
> I cannot say that going from being member of terrorist organization 
> to being, I don't know legit member of whatever political party is 
> just changing your affiliation. I think it is learning to value human 
> life finally. 

Montavilla47:
Again, not a disagreement, but just a comment.  Belonging to a 
legitimate political party doesn't mean that you have learned to 
value human life.  You can belong to one without valuing human
life.  Or without valuing human life to the point where it's going to
interfere with a policy that ends up killing people.

Alla:
>So, no, to me constant Snape is not. He goes to me from 
> being on very low stage of human beings ( yes, I have no respect 
> whatsoever for members of terrorists organizations) to, well being 
> deemed worthy to call himself a human being. I mean I still hate him, 
> but as I said, I will not call him what in my mind I call terrorists 
> whose favorite past time is torture and killing. Recently only those 
> I cannot save
 I cannot imagine Snape even thinking in these terms 
> when he started with Voldy. I really cannot. He IMO was worried about 
> Lily and no other human being meant anything to him. 

Montavilla47:
See, I can't help thinking that a lot of people who join terrorist 
organizations are doing it because it makes sense to them as 
a way forward--like young men who join street gangs because it
gives them protection.  

When I listen to the stories of people who joined  and later left
street gangs, they usually stress how necessary it was to join up
in order avoid being hassled as a loner.  They knew that the gangs
sold drugs and killed people--there were people being killed all
around them.  They knew that joining a gang put you at risk from
being killed by a rival gang.  But *not* joining was even more
dangerous, because you'd be out there with no protection at 
all.

Even in the books, we see that there are negative consequences
to being a loner.  Both Neville and Luna are hassled by classmates.
Luna has her things stolen from her so often that she accepts it as
a fact of school life.  Neville gets petrified by Hermione, leg-locked
by Draco's gang, and turned into the butt of jokes by the twins.  
That he keeps standing up for himself is so noteworthy that he 
wins the House Cup because of it.