Muggles v wizards redux

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 183262

> Alla:
> 
> Yes, of course and that is why what Dumbledore's father did feels to
> me as wrong while completely understandable.

Magpie:
Yes, a Muggle might have killed somebody too. And been persecuted for 
it. But that's a different point than the fact that Wizards think of 
Muggles as inferior beings and even benignly treat them as such.


> Alla:
> 
> I really beg to differ about Hermione's relationship not being a
> normal daughter/ parents relationship. So she lies to her parents
> because she wants to either a) stay with the family of the boy she
> likes every chance she gets or b) she wants to help the boy she and
> the boy she likes best friends with. And again, I am not even 
talking
> about justifications for what she does, since I find it irrelevant
> for my argument.

Magpie:
Her justifications aren't irrelevent. That's what makes her 
different. Sure kids lie to their parents. They don't just think they 
have to to do so because their parents are dummies who can't handle 
the truth. Hermione knows she's got a ton of power over her parents 
and it's her right to use it. There's no way that doesn't just 
fundamentally change the relationship--and in this universe there's 
nothing balancing that out. 

Wizard parents are shown reacting to things that happen at school and 
they know what's going on with Voldemort and make decisions for their 
children based on that and the kids listen to their authority. The 
Grangers's opinion doesn't matter to anyone. Their daughter always 
knows best and she can always lie and get away with it with all the 
groundwork already laid. Wizard parents have authority over their 
children and use it regularly. In fact, they seem to be closer to 
their kids than many people are nowadays. Kids look to their parents 
a lot because family is very important--if you're a Wizard.

Teenagers lie to their parents, they don't think of their parents as 
if they are the children who need to be protected unless there's 
something seriously bad going on. And since everyone knows that 
teenagers will try to lie, there's generallly some systems in place 
to help their parents. Not so if your child is a Wizard. Wizarding 
adults will take care of it.

Alla:

Ron also does not tell his family everything and while
> some of it is known to them anyways, they are not for example privy
> about the mission they go on with Harry and that has nothing to do
> with them being wizards. It is just that a secret that Trio decided
> not to share with anybody including their families.


Magpie:
Yes, it's known to them anyways. That's an important thing for any 
parent. Ron's parents actually know a whole lot about what's going on 
with him, and his not telling his parents about the mission is a good 
example. Ron's parents agree to him going on a mission they don't 
know everything about. They know some basics and Ron's 17 by that 
point and almost an adult. They can talk to each other as adults and 
agree, and they go on living their lives. The Grangers are 
brainwashed. Ron's relationship with his parents is basically honest. 
Hermione's is by the end of the series is usually about dishonesty 
when they come up at all. They're inconvenient to the plot but aren't 
supposed to be hated like the Dursleys (who wind up being treated 
with more respect in this area). 

Alla: 
> And I also do not see where you see Hermione as not recognizing them
> of having any authority. Sure, sometimes she is successful of
> convincing them to let her stay with Weasleys. 

Magpie:
I see it every time there's a disagreement about what Hermione's 
going to do past something like first year, and Hermione's choice 
wins out because her parents "don't understand." And not "don't 
understand" in an emo teenager way, but "don't understand" in a 
condescending way because they're Muggles so she just has to do 
whatever she has to do. I don't see what her going to France with 
them has to do with anything, whether or not she'd have loved to go 
to Egypt with the Weasleys. I'm not surprised the example where she 
would love to stay but goes home is when she's 11. That would just be 
bizarre by the time she's in 5th year.
 
> Alla:
> 
> Yes I find the anguish of the daughter who thinks that it is 
possible
> that her parents will never recognize her because she is saving 
their
> lives heart wrenching . 

But as I wrote to Kemper, before I read it on
> the list it did not enter my mind that Hermione did it without her
> parents consent. I acknowledge the other interpretation, but myself 
I
> believe that Hermione sit her parents down and explained their
> options and I happen to think that they would do so in order to 
avoid
> accidentally giving out information about her.

Magpie:
Given that we've got consistent examples of Hermione not sitting her 
parents down and telling them anything, that seems highly OOC for 
Hermione. I think she'd also have said that if that's what she did. 
They would have been part of the plan, they'd have argued, they'd 
have wanted to help, they'd have taken a long time to get ready to 
leave. (The fact that she has to give them a false idea that they 
want to go to Australia also makes it seem like she's manipulating 
them.) It's presented as just part of Hermione's plan. When it comes 
to plans her habit is doing it without telling anybody until 
afterwards. 


Carol:
Memory Charms on Muggles are another matter. They seem to be
necessitated by the Statute of Secrecy, which started out as a way of
protecting the WW from Muggles but seems to have gotten out of hand.

Magpie:
Yes, I agree. But I think it's also going hand in hand with the basic 
contempt for Muggles. A different world could have memory charms used 
in a system that had a very different attitude towards it. Here it's 
all part of the superiority complex. Which is consistent within the 
world so it makes internal sense. I just don't think you can have 
that and also think that if a reader was zapped into that world they 
wouldn't be treated as inferior too. That seems to be a big part of 
the appeal of being a Wizard.

-m