Bagman – A Death Eater or Not? – You (Generic) Decide (GoF CH 7-9 Post DH look)

[Goddlefrood]

No: HPFGUIDX 181803

> > > Mike:
> > > And Goddlefrood thought he really was a Death Eater.

> > Goddlefrood:

> > Because he was, there's nothing to refute that unless and  
> > until the Encyclopaedia says otherwise.

> Carol:

> We know that he wasn't with the DEs who were baiting the 
> Muggles at the QWC; he was dealing with the goblins to 
> whom he owed money. 

Goddlefrood, having substantially rearranged and partially 
rewritten earlier posts, presents the case for Bagman being 
a Death Eater:

When Bagman says "Damn them!" in the passage quoted below, 
he is  referring to his fellow muggle-baiting Death Eaters. 
I am of the view that he was upset because either he was 
missing the fun, or he did not wish attention to be drawn 
to his Dark Lord's return until the time was right, knowing 
as he did about the events that had been set in motion for 
Voldemort's return.

In GoF, Chapter 10 (The Dark Mark) Bagman is encountered 
emerging from the tress close to where the Dark Mark is 
conjured very soon before that conjuring. IMO, we are only 
*supposed* to believe that he is hiding from or negotiating 
with the Goblins as a blind. The relevant passage is:

'The words were hardly out of his mouth, when Ludo Bagman 
emerged from behind a tree right ahead of them.
Even by the feeble light of the two wands, Harry could see 
that a great change had come over Bagman. He no longer looked 
buoyant and rosy-faced; there was no more spring in his step. 
He looked very white and strained.
"Who's that?" he said, blinking down at them, trying to make 
out their faces. "What are you doing in here, all alone?"
They looked at each other, surprised.
"Well – there's a sort of riot going on," said Ron.
Bagman stared at him. "What?"
"On the campsite
some people have got hold of a family of 
Muggles
"
Bagman swore loudly. "Damn them!" he said, looking quite 
distracted, and without another word, he Disapparated with 
a small pop.
"Not exactly on top of things, Mr. Bagman, is he?" said 
Hermione, frowning.
"He was a great beater, though," said Ron, leading the way 
off the path into a small clearing, and sitting down on a 
patch of dry grass at the foot of a tree. "The Wimbourne 
Wasps won the league three times in a row while he was with 
them."' 

(Page 114, Bloomsbury hardback edition [All following quotes 
and page numbers from same edition])

Shortly after this the Dark Mark appears and as we later 
find out Barty Crouch Jnr. had conjured it. Is it not 
possible, even probable, that Bagman was meeting Crouch 
Jnr. either in furtherance of the plot or to have it 
explained to him and to warn him off from having Bertha 
Jorkins searched for too closely? It's unlikely that anyone 
can refute this, circumstantial though it is. Circumstantial 
evidence has led to many an incarceration before now and is 
often compelling. There is more, naturally, for which read 
on.

Bagman actually arrives where the Ministry wizards have just 
stunned Winky and Barty Jnr. and we are told:

`Comprehension dawned suddenly on Bagman's round, shiny face; 
he looked up at the skull, down at Winky and then at Mr. Crouch.
"No!" he said. "Winky? Conjure the Dark Mark? She wouldn't know 
how! She'd need a wand for a start!"' 

(GOF Chapter Nine – The Dark Mark, page 119)

>From this I take it that LB knows how to conjure the Dark Mark 
and it is suggestive of his knowing the ways of the Death Eaters 
and probably that he is one.

Mr. Weasley, a few pages later (page 128) then helpfully tells 
us:

"But I'll tell you this 
 it was only the Death Eaters who ever 
knew how to conjure it."

Further indicating that a person who, as LB clearly seemed to 
immediately, knew how to conjure the Dark Mark is a Death Eater.

Much later in the book, and without wishing to pre-empt Alla 
in any way, Voldemort in the graveyard when speaking to Lucius 
Malfoy says something quite unusual, it is on page 564 of Chapter 
Thirty Three – The Death Eaters:

"And yet you ran from my Mark, when a faithful Death Eater sent 
it into the sky last summer?" 
 "Yes, I know all about that, 
Lucius 
 you have disappointed me 
 I expect more faithful 
service in future."

How did Voldemort know that Lucius ran from the Dark Mark? I 
suggest that LB informed him at some point because LB himself 
joined the muggle-baiting Death Eaters. He only rejoined the 
Ministry wizards quite some time after they had arrived at 
the scene of the crime of conjuring the Mark. He would know 
that the Death Eaters dispersed when the Mark was seen in 
that circumstance.

> Carol:
> We know that he was trying to help Harry win the TWT, not 
> because he was in on the plan to kidnap Harry, but because 
> he had given the goblins Leprechaun gold. 

Goddlefrood:

Throughout the Triwizard Tournament Bagman tries to assist Harry 
so noticeably that even the usually unobservant Harry wonders why 
he is not trying to assist the other champions. Bagman would do 
this not only to get some gold, but also because he wants Harry 
to win and go to Voldemort.

In Chapter Seventeen – The Four Champions, after fake Moody 
has been talking about how Harry got into the Quatriwizard 
Tournament with his thoughts that someone is out to kill Harry 
on page 245 it says: `Ludo Bagman, who was looking very anxious 
indeed 
 "Moody, old man 
 what a thing to say!"'

In my view LB is here trying to deflect suspicion away from 
what fake Moody outlined as the circumstances behind Harry's 
entry into the Tournament and the reasons for it. It seems to 
me that Bagman and fake Moody are deliberately attempting to 
direct us to look for alternative suspects (and of course at 
this point of the book Karkaroff and Snape have not been 
cleared from suspicion).

He also disappears before the Death eaters congregate, as 
George tells us in Chapter 37 (The Beginning) on page 635 
of the Bloomsbury hardback edition:

"So Bagman had to run for it. Right after the third task." 

This would give him time to get outside the Hogwarts grounds 
and Apparate to the Little Hangleton graveyard with the other 
Death Eaters. Misdirection is given in that George speculates 
that Bagman ran because of the Goblins, whereas it is equally 
plausible that he did not want to miss his master's return.

Another matter relevant to Bagman potentially being a Death 
Eater is when he is present during the choosing of the 
Triwizard Tournament champions, which actually turns into 
a Quatriwizard Tournament. He is described as looking rather 
excited when Harry is chosen as the fourth champion. Now 
obviously we are supposed to think that this is because 
Bagman foresees getting good odds on Harry so he could 
pay off the Goblins, and this may be partly true, however 
it also fits that he would be excited because the plan is 
now beginning to work and he knows that if he is able to 
guide Harry through the tasks successfully he would not 
only please Voldemort but also be able to clear his gambling 
debts.

In fact it makes perfect sense that Bagman would be happy for 
Harry to win the Tournament and help him with the tasks, as he 
subsequently attempts to do, in order that he fulfil his duty 
to the Dark Lord *and* win his bet. If the plan were known to 
Bagman, as I believe it was, then he would consider that the 
bet could not lose, as he would know that Harry must win for 
the plan to succeed and Bagman is obviously confident that it 
will.

Who says he was not in the graveyard? This point is far from 
proven. I do not accept that we are aware who all was actually 
present in the graveyard. Snape in "Spinner's End" mentions 
Yaxley, the Carrows, Greyback and Rookwood, later we meet 
Gibbon (when dead admittedly). None of these, except possibly 
Rookwood, are referred to in the graveyard scene. This is 
suggestive that several DEs were present who had not yet 
been identified, and may never be.

The gates of Hogwarts are the boundary and according to JKR's 
map are not far from the Quidditich pitch. Apparition is not 
shown to be an energy sapping process. Bagman disappeared after 
the third task, but it would be at lease half an hour or an hour 
before the DEs appeared in the graveyard. (Voldemort being reborn 
and talking to Harry before their arrival for instance).

Objections were raised regarding Veritaserum and Barty Jnr. 
not mentioning LB while under its influence, objections that 
are easily answered. Barty Jnr. only answers direct questions 
under Veritaserum. No one questioning him suspects LB and he 
is, therefore, not asked any questions regarding LB. This 
would explain why LB is not mentioned by Barty Jnr. LB may 
well have disappeared as soon as Harry and Cedric did, while 
pausing only long enough to ascertain what the goblins' 
decision on the winner was.

> Carol:

> We know that he was always dim; there's no reason not to 
> believe that he was taken in by "old Rookwood." 

Goddlefrood:

The first mention of LB is during the discussion regarding 
Bertha Jorkins's disappearance in Chapter 5 (Weasley's Wizard 
Wheezes) by Percy who says "Oh, Bagman's likeable enough, of 
course." (page 58, Bloomsbury hardback edition). He is first 
met at the Quidditch World Cup. The quote from Percy is 
suggestive of Bagman's being not terribly bright, likeable, 
but not the full quid, as `twere.

Barty Crouch Snr.'s opinion of people must be considered and 
further supports my contention of there being more to LB and 
his previous history than met the eye. In Chapter 21 (The House
-Elf Liberation Front) Winky says: "Mr. Bagman is a bad wizard! 
My master isn't liking him, oh no, not at all!" Crouch Snr.'s 
suspicions seem to be correct as he is correct about his own 
son. As the head of the Department of Magical law Enforcement 
during Voldwar I he is in a prime position to know the 
culpability of the Death Eaters. From this statement of 
Winky's I take it that Crouch Snr. is far from believing 
Bagman was a dupe, which is confirmed by his reaction during 
Bagman's trial in the Pensieve. There's definitely more to it 
than just some annoyance that Ludo escaped imprisonment. I 
believe Barty Senior knew some things about Bagman that were 
ultra vires the proceedings against him in the Pensieve.

There is more significance in Winky's statement than may 
first appear. I contend that Bagman in some way was closely 
linked to Crouch Jnr., hence Crouch Snr's intense dislike of 
Bagman. This also links back to Bagman in the woods at the 
Quidditch World Cup. If I am right, and I believe I am, at 
least about Bagman being involved in the plot in book 4, 
then it would make sense that Crouch Jnr. and Bagman were 
closely associated and meeting prior to Bagman emerging from 
the woods at almost exactly the same spot Crouch Jnr. conjured 
the Dark Mark.

We are also handed information about LB by Rita Skeeter in 
Chapter Twenty Four – Rita Skeeter's Scoop. Rita was at LB's 
trial and would know of the circumstances leading up to it. 
She comments on page 391 "he was always a bad liar."

This certainly could lead one to the conclusion that Rita 
disbelieved LB about his excuse at his trial, if not for 
other possible lies. I conclude from this that Rita supports 
me in my contention that LB is and was a Death Eater, despite 
her not always being the most reliable source. It is persuasive 
circumstantial evidence.

Rita further says on page 392 "I know things about Ludo Bagman 
that would make your hair curl
".

Surely this could not only be referring to his being a dupe 
in passing information to Rookwood. There must be far more 
to it than that and it adds further support to the conclusion 
that LB is a Death Eater.

Moving to Chapter Thirty - The Pensieve when Harry is 
questioning Dumbledore about all he has seen on page 524 
we find this exchange:

"Er," he said, "Mr. Bagman 
"
" 
 has never been accused of any Dark activity since," said 
Dumbledore calmly.

It transpires that this is exactly what Dumbledore says 
regarding Severus Snape as well. With what we know of 
Severus we could not possibly say that he (Severus) was 
not a Death Eater. We do now know that Severus renounced 
his Death Eater ways.

To me this quotation is further support for LB being a 
Death Eater and yes I know it would apply equally to all 
Death Eaters from Voldemort's fall until his return, as 
they have been very careful not to be locked away like 
so many of their fellows. Why should Bagman be any different?

> Carol:

> We know that the "big blond Death Eater" of HBP is Thorfinn 
> Rowle, not Ludo Bagman. 

Goddlefrood:

We do, and I haven't suggested otherwise since DH was released, 
I wonder why you bring it up. I can read, IOW.

> Carol: 

> I see no evidence to indicate that he was ever a DE.

Goddlefrood:

Some other loose ends in support:

Bagman is put across as unconcerned about Bertha's disappearance, 
however in light of this article I contend that Bagman knew all 
about the plot to kidnap and kill Harry throughout the fourth 
book and the references to his problems with the Goblins, while 
undoubtedly genuine, are misdirection on Ms. Rowling's part to 
cast suspicion away from Bagman.

The relevant quotation at this point is: "Mr. Crouch has taken 
a personal interest – she worked in our department at one time, 
you know, and I think Mr. Crouch was quite fond of her – but 
Bagman just keeps laughing and saying she probably misread the 
map and ended up in Australia instead of Albania." This is said 
by Percy in Chapter 5 on page 58. Now of course Bagman would try 
to delay anybody's attempts to locate Bertha, or at least her 
remains, until after the plot was carried out. Bagman does 
eventually send a search party, but reluctantly and no doubt 
he would be able to send the searchers to the wrong location 
anyway.

There's quite a bit of evidence, albeit circumstantial, let 
others be the Judge, we having both had our say.

> Carol, who thinks that Ludo is still running from the Goblins 
> as of DH

Goddlefrood, who thinks it odd that Bagman was not mentioned at 
all after GoF and also thinks Bagman could be on the run from 
the Goblins still, even if he is or was ever a Death Eater.

NB - It bothers me not one whit either way if Bagman is a Death 
Eater, the case for the prosecution is merely hereby presented.