GoF CH 13-16 Post DH look

[Carol]

No: HPFGUIDX 181873


> Zgirnius:
> Second, in Ch. 13-16, GoF, did Snape really know that Dumbledore
> trusts him? Or was this a matter regarding which he could have been
> in some doubt? In "The Egg and the Eye" (jumping ahead) he angrily
> asserts Dumbledore trusts him. This could be a bluff. It could also
> reflect a change from the start of GoF: that later chapter is after
> the Yule Ball and thus after the "we sort too soon" conversation
> of "The Prince's Tale", in which Dumbledore sounds Snape out about
> his intentions in light of Voldemort's impending return, and seem
> impressed with Snape's resolve to resume his spying.
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Curious. As I said, I can totally see Dumbledore being angry at Snape 
> after Sirius' fiasco, I have read the idea that the fact that Moody 
> was patrolling the corridors instead of Snape sorta shows that, I am 
> sure I brought it even here at one time, but do you think Dumbledore 
> indeed took away his trust that lightly? <snip>

Carol responds:
I see no reason for DD to stop trusting Snape. He knows snape's
reasons for distrusting Lupin, who did, after all, forget his potion
and endanger three students, including Harry, partially verifying
snape's suspicions. As for the "slip" at breakfast, Lupin's
resignation was already inevitable at that point. And Snape's distrust
of Sirius Black (if not his hatred) had been shared by DD himself
until right before the Time-turning incident. DD doesn't know about
the Marauder's Map, but he does know that Snape followed Lupin after
Lupin failed to take his potion, that Snape was trying to capture and
turn in a "murderer" and a werewolf, that he conjured the stretchers
and brought in not only the "murderer" but the three kids (still in
danger from the werewolf and any returning Dementors). Why on earth
would DD's trust in Snape be altered?

And by the time of the scene with Fake!Moody, Snape has already
reported his own and Karkaroff's Dark Marks returning and Karkaroff's
plans to flee in contrast to his own plans to stay. What I read in
"Dumbledore trusts me!" is not fear that he's wrong but defensiveness
and resentment. He knows that the real Moody doesn't trust him and
that this Moody (whom he thinks is real) has searched his office,
ostensibly looking for Dark artifacts, and he knows that this Moody is
prowling the halls, which has always been *his* job (perhaps
self-imposed), so I think he's a bit jealous, too. I'm sure he feels
that Harry doesn't need the extra protection ostensibly provided by
"Moody" because he can do that himself. 

But "Sometimes we sort too soon," however shocking it may originally
have been to Snape, is a sort of compliment, with DD as much as saying
that Snape is courageous enough to be a Gryffindor. I really don't
think that Snape has any doubts about DD's trust in him, only
resentment of Moody's being hired for a job or jobs that he knows he
can do (DADA and protecting Harry). That's assuming, of course, that
he doesn't know about the jinx on the position. (Maybe he does know it
and can hardly wait for it to take effect!)

Alla" 
> Now if Dumbledore was indeed trusting Snape all the time, but Snape
is just not sure about it, being insecure or something and now here 
is DD old friend, who may whisper stuff in Dumbledore's ear about him,
yeah I guess I can see that.

Carol:
I don't think it's so much that Snape is afraid of what "Moody" will
say about him (what can he say that DD doesn't already know? He's not
actually keeping Dark artifacts in his office) as being reluctant to
offend or confront Dumbledore's old friend, another person whom
Dumbledore trusts and relies on. Also, while he had reason to distrust
Quirrell and keep an eye on him, knew from Day One that Lockhart was
an incompetent phony, and thought that the man he knew to be a
werewolf was helping his friend the "murderer" and supposed betrayer
of the Potters get into the castle to murder Harry, he has no real
reason to doubt "Moody." He does, however, know that the real Moody
hates him and that the old ex-Auror is paranoid. Possibly, he's being
careful not to provoke him. "Moody's" turning Draco into a ferret and
his demonstrating the Unforgiveable Curses to the students, actually
using the Imperius Curse on them, may not have aroused his suspicions
that Moody is an imposter, but they could make Snape doubt the old
man's sanity. Even though Snape is an expert duellist, it's best not
to provoke a fellow teacher prone to such dangerous behavior.
> 
Alla:
> 
> I really like that, but for someone who is sure of DD's trust, Snape 
> seems to me to be a little too defensive.
> 
> Oy, I think he is afraid of Moody, but again why?

Carol:
He's definitely defensive, but, again, I think it's more resentment
and jealousy on the one hand and reluctance to provoke DD's unstable
friend than actual fear. Notice that Snape tells Filch to shut up; he
doesn't want Moody to know his concerns about Harry possibly stealing
Polyjuice ingredients from his office. It's none of his business. He
also tells "Moody" that he has every right to prowl the hallways and
that Moody has no authority over him. He doesn't argue when Moody
tells him to go back to bed, but, IMO, that's becausehe knows that the
real Moody won't harm Harry. True, Harry won't get detention for being
out of bed, but he'll get his egg back and Snape can deal with the
stolen Polyjuice ingredients himself later (or so he thinks).
> 
Carol earlier:
> That's a tough one and I don't know the answer. However, I think
that anyone except maybe Dumbledore feels uncomfortable under the
magical eye, and Snape knows that the real Moody doesn't trust him, so
that makes him uncomfortable, too. And yet Snape can out-Occlumens
*Voldemort*, so it's odd that he would be discomposed by the man he
thinks is Moody. If he suspected "Moody" to be an imposter, I think
he'd be deliberately making eye contact, at least with the normal eye,
to use Legilimency on him.  <SNIP>
 
Alla:
> 
> Right, again I am just wondering why so uncomfortable, maybe Moody
knows something compromising about Snape, but it would be good pre 
DH, Snape knows that he is loyal, etc, why not look at Moody and 
laugh at him? Or whatever, just look at him, since Snape does not seem
to ever laugh.
> 
> I do not know though about if he suspected, he would use a 
Legilimency, I mean, how does he know that the other person cannot do
legilimency as well and use it on him? <snip>
> 
Carol:
I think that Snape would simultaneously use Occlumency and Legilimency
on anyone he looked in the eye (except Voldemort, where subtle,
undetectable Legilimency would be essential). There's no indication
that either the real or the fake Moody knows Legilimency, but even if
they did, they'd be no match for our superb Occlumens. I'm quite sure
that he's not concerned about his thoughts and motives being detected.
(Side note: I'm pretty sure that Fake!Moody *was* reporting Snape's
words and behavior, but not to Dumbledore. LV's loyal DE at Hogwarts,
who seems to have used the eagle owl to communicate with Voldemort,
may well have included information on Snape (such as his loyalty to
DD) that contributed to LV's belief that Snape had "left him forever").

Anyway, I'm sure that the last thing Snape fears is anyone performing
Legilimency on him. He can hoodwink Voldemort, the greatest Legilimens
of all time, after all. (And we see just how formidable Voldemort's
Legilimency is in DH.) But Legilimency and Occlumency aside, I think
that magical eye would make Snape uncomfortable, and he has no reason
to look Mad-Eye in the eye because he doesn't suspect him of anything
worse than paranoia and possible mental instability. If Snape
suspected him of being an imposter disloyal to DD, he'd endure that
magical eye looking through him, just as he endures Voldemort's
intrusions into his mind later.

Carol, wondering how Snape felt about the real Moody once he learned
that the "Moody" who taught DADA was a fake