GoF CH 13-16 Post DH look

[Zara]

No: HPFGUIDX 181867

>  Alla:
> Hmmm, you make interesting points. So are you basically saying here 
> that Snape may have indeed suspected Moody of being an impostor but 
> was worried that after Sirius' fiasco Dumbledore will tell him to 
go 
> jump in the lake?

zgirnius:
I deliberately used vaguer phrasing. I see no evidence for the 
specific suspicion that "Moody" was a fraud. A less specified "bad 
feeling" about "Moody" might be behind the avoidance behavior you 
originally asked about.

> Alla:
> Curious. As I said, I can totally see Dumbledore being angry at 
Snape 
> after Sirius' fiasco, I have read the idea that the fact that Moody 
> was patrolling the corridors instead of Snape sorta shows that, I 
am 
> sure I brought it even here at one time, but do you think 
Dumbledore 
> indeed took away his trust that lightly?

zgirnius:
At which point do you think Snape knew that he had won that trust? 
Some time before Lily's death in VW1? When he agreed to help protect 
Harry? Looking at the two VW1 scenes of Snape and DD in DH, I can see 
where Snape might not have considered himself to have Albus's trust 
at all in either of them. 

I'm not suggesting Snape thought he had lost that trust after PoA, 
I'm suggesting he, in Ch. 13-16 of GoF, did not know he had ever 
enjoyed it. I think he is smart and cynical enough to understand his 
potential usefulness to DD, so DD simply keeping him around is not a 
basis for deciding he is trusted.

After all, in the Yule Ball conversation, Dumbledore seems to express 
an expectation that Snape will run away like Karkaroff when Voldemort 
comes back.

> Alla:
> I mean, not that I would put it past Dumbledore and not that I 
would 
> have trusted Snape who did not give a d*mn about Potters even when 
he 
> came to Dumbledore, but supposedly Dumbledore accepted his promise 
> and gave him a chance, you think he forgot all that or indeed deep 
in 
> his heart he thought that once a Death eater, always a death eater?

zgirnius:
I don't think the last, he should know better based on his own life 
story. But I certainly don't think that he trusted Snape the moment 
Snape said "Anything" in that first memory. I would expect he waited 
to see what Snape would actually do, and whatever it was Snape did in 
VW1, was at least enough to incline him favorably towards continuing 
the experiment. (Which he did in various ways - hiring Snape, asking 
Snape to help him protect Harry, and testifying on Snape's behalf at 
the Ministry).

Even if at this point Dumbledore did trust Snape, though, would you 
say that the scenes we see, depict Dumbledore acting in a way which 
would allow Snape to determine that he was trusted?

> Zgirnius:
> Third, if DD trusts both Moody and Snape, and Snape trusts DD's
> judgment of Moody, but Moody does not trust *Snape* and Snape knows
> it...Snape might be avoiding confrontation. Moody is supposed to be
> there to help keep an eye on things during the TWT, and having him
> waste lots of time on Snape is counterproductive.

> Alla:
> I really like that, but for someone who is sure of DD's trust, 
Snape 
> seems to me to be a little too defensive.
> 
> Oy, I think he is afraid of Moody, but again why?

zgirnius again:
I guess you have me convinced Snape was *not* sure. <g> So it could 
just be a matter of Moody's exact knowledge of his Death Eater past, 
and worry over whether Moody can stir up any suspicions about him and 
Karkaroff, or what have you, in Dumbledore's mind.

> Alla:
> Right, again I am just wondering why so uncomfortable, maybe Moody 
> knows something compromising about Snape, but it would be good pre 
> DH, Snape knows that he is loyal, etc, why not look at Moody and 
> laugh at him? Or whatever, just look at him, since Snape does not 
> seem to ever laugh.

zgirnius:
Ah! Light bulb moment. Moody is someone who knows Snape was a DE, 
whom Snape associated with as a DE, and some of Snape's DE history, 
from his work as an Auror in VW1. This is not compromising in the 
sense that it could be used to drive a wedge between Snape and DD, or 
get Snape arrested, since I am sure DD knows at least as much as 
Moody about Snape's career by this point. But, if Snape regrets not 
merely helping to cause Lily's death, but the whole DE thing, Moody 
is someone who knows the worst of which he is capable, and does not 
know or credit just how serious Snape is/has been/will be about 
making up for it. Perhaps he is just an uncomfortable person to be 
around for this reason.

> Alla:
> Because it is  a weapon? Why hand Harry a weapon?

zgirnius:
Being a good DADA teacher is by definition handing his class weapons. 
Famous ex-Auror Alastor Moody could arouse suspicion if he was not a 
good teacher. He cannot be a Quirrell, a Lockhart, or an Umbridge. At 
the least, he must cover, and allow students to practice, advanced 
material, which would allow talented and motivated students (which 
Harry is, in DADA) to learn it. It's merely a matter of which weapons 
to hand him.

Resisting Imperius is handy, but Harry got a lot more mileage out 
of "Expelliarmus!". Whatever Rowling would have chosen to teach Harry 
in the class we were shown, would be a spell that would come in 
handy, it's parsimony. Unless 'Moody' taught nothing. The 
Unforgivables were a thing for 'Moody' to teach that met the 
usefulness criterion, while also being a subtle clue.