GoF CH 27-29 Post DH look/ Snape and Harry redux

[montavilla47]

No: HPFGUIDX 182174

> Leah:
> Snape 
> > does not decide the prophecy refers to Harry, he does not change 
> > Secret Keepers, he does not betray the location of Godric's Hollow, 
> > he does not decide to leave Harry with the Dursleys and not check 
> on 
> > him, he does not raise him to die, so there are a lot of people 
> > Harry has the right to be wrong about. 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Snape IMO has the very first honorable place on that list, well maybe 
> shared with Voldemort.
> 
> Without Snape giving the prophecy, there will be no need for Secret 
> keeper, would not matter whether location of GH is betrayed or not, 
> Harry would not need to go to Dursleys. Do I need to go on?
> 
> IMO **nothing** would have happened had Snape not gave that prophecy, 
> and Harry had a chance to live normal happy life with their parents.

Montavilla47:
I think that's an interesting speculation.  Would nothing have occurred
to Harry if Snape hadn't delivered the half-prophecy to Voldemort?

I mean, if Voldemort hadn't heard the prophecy, then he wouldn't
have targeted the Potters, of course.  

But then, of course, he had already targeted them three times, right?

Undoubtably, Dumbledore would have put both the Potters and the 
Longbottoms into hiding, since he knew about the danger and that
one of them had had a child who would have the power to vanquish
Voldemort.

But, in order for the prophecy to come true, Voldemort would need
to mark the child as his equal.  Could he have done that without
knowing the first part of the prophecy?

And, honestly, it wouldn't have taken Harry to vanquish Voldemort
if you think about it.  All it would really take would be figuring out
that he had made horcruxes, doing the detective work that 
Dumbledore did, destroying them, and then killing Voldemort.  

Theoretically, anyone could have done that.  Or better yet, a group
of people who had good intelligence about Voldemort and shared
pertinent information.  






> 
> I mean, yes, of course Lily and James could have died at war, nothing 
> is a certainty, but they would not have NEED to go in hiding but for 
> Snape and even if they died, Harry at least may not have been marked 
> IMO.
> 
> So, yes, I think Snape destroyed Harry's life and made it hellish, at 
> least before Harry met his friends.
> 
> As I said many times of course we would have no story without Snape 
> doing all that, but when I am playing a game of blaming Snape, I am 
> doing it from within the story.
> 
> But of course Dumbledore is right up there as well, no questions 
> about it.
> 
> Leah:
> >And of course, once 
> > Voldemort had latched onto Harry as prophecy boy, it was only down 
> > to Snape that Harry has any life at all. If Snape had not asked for 
> > Lily's life, she would not have been given the all-important choice 
> > to live and Harry would have been as dead as his parents.  
> 
> Alla:
> 
> LOL. That is somehow positive thing Snape did now? Without him giving 
> Voldemort the prophecy BOTH Lily and Harry would have had a chance to 
> live IMO.
> 
> Leah:
> Yes, as Magpie has said, vibrations, picking up emotions, not
> empathy, which is a feeling of something in common? Real
> leglimency, as we see in the Occlumency lessons, gives very clear
> glimpses of memory, and Snape does not seem to get those in general,
> I think he picks up feelings without particularly trying, like the
> fact that Harry is lying about something, without going into real
> leglimency and seeing what that something is.
> <SNIP>
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I wanted to reply to Magpie, but I may as well start with reply to 
> you. When I asked what it means, I did not mean that I did not know 
> the expression, I was asking (obviously not clear) how Snape picks up 
> the feelings. Do you think he has some unknown abilities of doing 
> that?
> 
> That is why I brought up empathy, because it is not that easy to pick 
> up feelings, unless what person really picks up is body language, etc 
> IMO.
> 
> Magpie:
> Basically, it's exactly what Harry does with Snape from the very
> first day. He picks up a vibe (vibration--you probably got that
> part!) that Snape really dislikes him and...he's absolutely right. I
> think the first time because Snape glares at him during the banquet--
> does he glare? Or just look at him and Harry feels pain in his scar
> because of Quirrel? But in his first Potions class he gets the
> feeling that Snape hates him personally and he's right.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Well, of course he is right, hehe, I wanted to bring up the quote 
> from GoF about Harry thinking that yes, of course Snape saved his 
> life in PS, but he still hates him and thought how spot on he was.
> 
> But again, what I said to Leah, I mean, it is not that easy to pick 
> up feelings, no?
> 
> Harry gets it because of how Snape acts, no? Not just looking at 
> Snape and saying, oh wow, this one has it in for me all right. I do 
> not know, gestures, sneers, etc.
> 
> It is just upthread I thought Leah was drawing distinction between 
> legilimency and just picking up feelings and I do not see how that is 
> possible, unless it is nothing magical, but simply reading person's 
> body language.
> 
> Does it make sense?
> 
> 
> Magpie:
> Now that it's over I'm actually willing to think Snape might
> sometimes be doing it but other times looking into his
> eyes "searching" for something else--they are Lily's eyes, and he
> might into them in other ways besides pure Legimancy.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Possible, although I think the author's intention at least was to 
> show that Snape looked in Harry's eyes for the first time and saw 
> Lily only when green eyes locked on black before he died.
> 
> So, I think if we go with metaphors, no I guess I do not think Snape 
> ever tried to really look in Harry's eyes to find Lily there, 
> otherwise he would have found her indeed. IMO.
> 
> JMO,
> 
> Alla
>