GoF CH 27-29 Post DH look/ Snape and Harry redux

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 182172

> Leah:  What do you mean by Snape 'destroying Harry's life as it 
> could have been'?  Is this a reference to something Snape does at 
> Hogwarts, because I can't see Harry 'destroyed' by anything Snape 
> does.  Or is it a reference to the prophecy, which Snape could not 
> have even know referred to a baby, let alone Harry personally, and 
> which Snape attempts to put right as soon as he does know.  
  
Alla:

Yes it is reference to the prophecy. As I always say, I give much 
more deference to Snape's intelligence, I think that if it is clear 
to me that prophecy refers to the baby which will be born on that 
month, it was clear to Snape as well.

It would not even enter my mind that prophecy could refer to adult 
wizard before I read it here, I still remember how funny I thought it 
was as mitigating circumstance for Snape.

I agree that Snape did not know to WHICH baby prophecy would refer, 
but it does not make to me a slightest difference in his 
responsibility.

In my mind he knows that prophecy refers to couple and their baby, so 
they are nameless, I do not see much difference in moral 
responsibility between giving nameless couple to Voldemort and when 
this couple and their baby acquired a name.

Leah:
Snape 
> does not decide the prophecy refers to Harry, he does not change 
> Secret Keepers, he does not betray the location of Godric's Hollow, 
> he does not decide to leave Harry with the Dursleys and not check 
on 
> him, he does not raise him to die, so there are a lot of people 
> Harry has the right to be wrong about. 

Alla:

Snape IMO has the very first honorable place on that list, well maybe 
shared with Voldemort.

Without Snape giving the prophecy, there will be no need for Secret 
keeper, would not matter whether location of GH is betrayed or not, 
Harry would not need to go to Dursleys. Do I need to go on?

IMO **nothing** would have happened had Snape not gave that prophecy, 
and Harry had a chance to live normal happy life with their parents.

I mean, yes, of course Lily and James could have died at war, nothing 
is a certainty, but they would not have NEED to go in hiding but for 
Snape and even if they died, Harry at least may not have been marked 
IMO.

So, yes, I think Snape destroyed Harry's life and made it hellish, at 
least before Harry met his friends.

As I said many times of course we would have no story without Snape 
doing all that, but when I am playing a game of blaming Snape, I am 
doing it from within the story.

But of course Dumbledore is right up there as well, no questions 
about it.

Leah:
>And of course, once 
> Voldemort had latched onto Harry as prophecy boy, it was only down 
> to Snape that Harry has any life at all. If Snape had not asked for 
> Lily's life, she would not have been given the all-important choice 
> to live and Harry would have been as dead as his parents.  

Alla:

LOL. That is somehow positive thing Snape did now? Without him giving 
Voldemort the prophecy BOTH Lily and Harry would have had a chance to 
live IMO.

Leah:
Yes, as Magpie has said, vibrations, picking up emotions, not
empathy, which is a feeling of something in common? Real
leglimency, as we see in the Occlumency lessons, gives very clear
glimpses of memory, and Snape does not seem to get those in general,
I think he picks up feelings without particularly trying, like the
fact that Harry is lying about something, without going into real
leglimency and seeing what that something is.
<SNIP>

Alla:

I wanted to reply to Magpie, but I may as well start with reply to 
you. When I asked what it means, I did not mean that I did not know 
the expression, I was asking (obviously not clear) how Snape picks up 
the feelings. Do you think he has some unknown abilities of doing 
that?

That is why I brought up empathy, because it is not that easy to pick 
up feelings, unless what person really picks up is body language, etc 
IMO.

Magpie:
Basically, it's exactly what Harry does with Snape from the very
first day. He picks up a vibe (vibration--you probably got that
part!) that Snape really dislikes him and...he's absolutely right. I
think the first time because Snape glares at him during the banquet--
does he glare? Or just look at him and Harry feels pain in his scar
because of Quirrel? But in his first Potions class he gets the
feeling that Snape hates him personally and he's right.

Alla:

Well, of course he is right, hehe, I wanted to bring up the quote 
from GoF about Harry thinking that yes, of course Snape saved his 
life in PS, but he still hates him and thought how spot on he was.

But again, what I said to Leah, I mean, it is not that easy to pick 
up feelings, no?

Harry gets it because of how Snape acts, no? Not just looking at 
Snape and saying, oh wow, this one has it in for me all right. I do 
not know, gestures, sneers, etc.

It is just upthread I thought Leah was drawing distinction between 
legilimency and just picking up feelings and I do not see how that is 
possible, unless it is nothing magical, but simply reading person's 
body language.

Does it make sense?


Magpie:
Now that it's over I'm actually willing to think Snape might
sometimes be doing it but other times looking into his
eyes "searching" for something else--they are Lily's eyes, and he
might into them in other ways besides pure Legimancy.

Alla:

Possible, although I think the author's intention at least was to 
show that Snape looked in Harry's eyes for the first time and saw 
Lily only when green eyes locked on black before he died.

So, I think if we go with metaphors, no I guess I do not think Snape 
ever tried to really look in Harry's eyes to find Lily there, 
otherwise he would have found her indeed. IMO.

JMO,

Alla