GoF CH 27-29 Post DH look/ Snape and Harry redux

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 182245

Julie:
Nothing is certain of course, but the point many have been
trying to make (I think) is that all available evidence
pointed to the end of the Potters, along with the rest of
the surviving Order members, in a WW ruled by Voldemort *had*
Snape NOT revealed the Prophecy.

Alla:

Oh yes, I get the point quite well. It is **all available evidence 
pointed to the end of Potters** part I am disputing.

Julie:
 That evidence being the
fact the Voldemort was already winning the war, the prophecy
stated "the ONE who will defeat him" (not "one of the few
who can defeat him"), and that Dumbledore was the only other
who conceivably *might* have been able to defeat Voldemort
yet knew nothing of the Horcruxes at the time, and even 16
years later could only manage to destroy one of them at the
cost of his own life.

Alla:

And my evidence is that we KNOW of order members no matter how few 
who survived the war, so who is to say that Potters would not have 
been among them, we know of even MORE order members who survived the 
first war, so who is to say that Potters would not have been among 
those who at least would have a misfortune to die at the very end. It 
would have given them SIXTEEN YEARS of family life and being with 
their son, even if that would have meant life during the war. And it 
is interesting when we are talking about small survival rates about 
Order members, they are not actually that small, it is not like three 
order members survived out of 100 or 1000. How many of them? 10? 12? 
( not reading OOP yet) And how many survived First war at least? 
Dumbledore, Lupin, Hagrid, Weasleys ( if we count them as helpers), 
Moody. Not bad at all, I would say.

And my evidence again is that Potters SUCCESFULLY defied Voldemort 
three times. Why again they could not have continued doing it if they 
were not specifically targeted as prophecy couple? 

And my evidence being as well that plenty of prophecies do not come 
true and Dumbledore went on and on  about the only reason this one 
came true is because Voldemort believed it. And um, who have 
Voldemort a reason to believe in prophecy. That would be Snape, since 
without him Voldemort would not have ever learned about it in the 
first place.


Julie:
So, *could* Voldemort have been defeated, allowing the Potters
and every other Order member to survive, and Harry to grow up
happy and loved in a stable and free WW? We can't discount a
remote possibility but it still seems VERY unlikely from the
evidence.

Alla:

Not from my evidence.

Julie:
 Much more likely, Harry would have died along with
his parents and most other Order members and their families,
or been spared because he was still a baby then raised in
a Voldy-ruled WW and schooled at a Slytherin-only Hogwarts.

Alla:

Why? This scenario surely does make Snape looks better, because that 
downplays the significance of horrible act he committed IMO. After 
all, if Potters would have died anyways, Snape could tell himself 
that no matter what he would have done, it would have still played 
the same way. No, sorry.  I can not discount this scenario of course, 
since all that we are discussing here are canon based speculations, 
but I believe that my scenario is just as likely to come true as 
yours. But this is not even my point. My point is that even if my 
scenario had little chance to come true, it still had SOME chance BUT 
FOR SNAPE'S ACTIONS IMO.

Julie:
Snape very likely saved Harry and the WW from a terrible fate,
even if he did so without a shred of noble intent initially.

Alla:

Yes, I will give you Snape saving WW from a terrible fate **without a 
shred of noble intent initially**. But I am speechless at the 
assertion of Snape saving Harry from terrible fate by telling the 
prophecy. Which fate that 
would be that Snape saved him from? Snape saved him from growing up 
with loving family possibility ( yes, it is just a possibility, but 
that is all I am discussing – possibilities in this thread and no, I 
cannot discount this possibility)

Or maybe Snape saved Harry from not having that scar on that 
forehead? Yes, that would be a terrible fate indeed to not be 
subjected to visions that Voldemort gave him and to be in physical 
pain from them as well.

Yes, I am being sarcastic of course, but I think that Snape saved 
Harry from terrible fate is a very weak argument, IMO.

Julie:
So, yes, the Potters *may* have been alive after surviving that
day, living as a happy family raising their well-adjusted son.

Alla:

Yes, that is what I am saying.

Julie:
But very probably not, no matter what Snape did or didn't do.

Alla:

No, sorry, I think the answer is very much depending on what Snape 
did.

Julie:
He simply didn't have the power to change their ultimate fate.

Alla:

LOL. I can give him a hint – not deliver prophecy to Voldemort and 
here you go, their fate may have been changed, no prophecy couple, no 
Chosen one.

Julie:
(Dumbledore, however, is another matter, but not the subject
of this discussion.)

Alla:

Of course he could change their fate, but again without Snape this 
would have never started IMO.


JMO,

Alla