GoF CH 27-29 Post DH look/ Snape and Harry redux

[Carol]

No: HPFGUIDX 182278


> > Alla:
> > 
> > LOL. I can give him a hint – not deliver prophecy to Voldemort and 
> > here you go, their fate may have been changed, no prophecy couple, 
> no 
> > Chosen one.
> > 
Carol:
Exactly, Alla! No Chosen One--no one to find and destroy the Horcruxes
or sacrifice himself (not knowing that he won't die) to save the WW.
Just a long, dreary eternity of an indestructible Voldemort ruling the
WW. The moment that Dumbledore dies or is killed, we have the
situation at the beginning of DH (before Voldemort is side-tracked by
the pursuit of the Elder Wand and with a DE headmaster, perhaps Snape,
who has no intention of protecting the students and every intention of
teaching them the Dark Arts and turning them all into DEs.)

Maybe you think that the WW isn't worth saving, but if Harry survived,
orphaned or otherwise, he'd have been as helpless as anyone else
(required to attend Hogwarts and treated as Neville and the others
were treated). There wouldn't even be a DA to stand up to
GeninelyEvil!Snape--or whoever the DE headmaster was. For that matter,
LV would likely have taken over Hogwarts long before Harry's seventh
year if it hadn't been for Godric's Hollow (and, I agree with you,
eavesdropper!Snape). I just don't agree that Godric's Hollow was a bad
thing in all respects. It was a bad thing for the Potters, certainly,
but it had good consequences unintended by anyone involved (and that's
at least seven people, not counting Baby!Harry himself).

And, as I've argued elsewhere, I don't think that anyone other than
Harry (with help from DD, Snape, and RH), including Dumbledore and the
Snapeless Order of the Phoenix, could have defeated Voldemort. As long
as he had even one Horcrux, he's keep coming back every time someone
like Dumbledore succeeded in killing him. And as soon as Dumbledore
put on that ring or went into the cave alone, it's good-bye, Dumbledore!
 
Julie:
<snip points that I agree with>
> 
> Dumbledore had NO idea about the Horcruxes (a fact that I don't
recall seeming mentioned yet) and wouldn't until and unless Voldy was
"killed" by the rebounded AK yet didn't fully die. So DD couldn't hunt
them if he wasn't even aware of them. I don't see any reason that he
would have become aware of them by any other manner than Voldy
"dying." Yet no one (perhaps not even Dumbledore) was his equal in
battle and could deliver that killing blow. <snip more points that I
agree with>

Carol responds:
I don't think it's a "fact" that DD knew notihing about the Horcruxes.
He'd been watching Tom since their first meeting at the orphanage and
investigating the murders that he knew Tom Riddle had committed (but
couldn't prove because Morfin and Hokey both died before they could
have a new trial).

Here's what Dumbledore knew before Godric's Hollow:

Tom Riddle, even as a child, was afraid of death and considered it
beneath the dignity of a witch or wizard.

Tom Riddle, even as a child, collected trophies to commemorate his
misdeeds.

Parselmouth!Tom had killed Moaning Myrtle by opening the Chamber of
Secrets and releasing what DD must have known was a Basilisk, framing
Hagrid for the deed. 

Tom had killed his father for revenge, framing Morfin and taking the
ring that traced his heritage to the Peverells. (Did DD know that the
stone set in the ring was the Resurrection Stone? I'll bet that he
did, and I'll bet that he wanted to find it.)

Tom's mother had worn Slytherin's locket and sold it to Caractacus
Burke for a fraction of its worth.

Tom had killed Hepzibah Smith, purchaser of the locket and owner of
the Hufflepuff cup, to steal those trophies, one related to his
Slytherin heritage and both related to Hogwarts history.

Tom's appearance had altered slightly (notably the red eyes when he
felt greed) when he murdered Hepzibah and greatly when he applied for
the DADA position, indicating that he had somehow dehumanized himself.

Tom's followers were called *Death* Eaters.

Put all that together and, if you're Dumbledore, you'll suspect that
those valuable stolen objects and the accompanying murders had been
used to prevent Voldemort from dying (his greatest fear) and were
responsible for his altered appearance.

Until Godric's Hollow, DD's speculations could only be a theory, but
that he was thinking about Horcruxes quite early in Tom's career is
clear from Slughorn's words in HBP, something about Horcruxes being a
banned subject at Hogwarts and Dumbledore being particularly fierce
about it. It seems that DD took the books on Horcruxes out of the
library while Tom was still at school. Unfortunately, he wasn't quick
enough (or Tom found what he needed to know somewhere else, say,
Borgin and Burkes).

Godric's Hollow proved to DD that Tom had made at least one Horcrux.
He probably suspected more than one (the ring, the cup, and the
locket). The destruction of the previously unsuspected diary, which
was clearly intended to be interactive and expendable, proved that he
had, indeed, made at least one, and probably more than one, more Horcrux.

But it took Godric's Hollow and Harry's destruction of the diary to
confirm the theory--and get Dumbledore off his duff and searching for
more Horcruxes, only three of which he could identify for certain.
(And it took the attack on Mr. Weasley, witnessed by Harry via the
scar link, to tell DD that Nagini had probably also been made into a
Horcrux, as confirmed by the silver instrument--"But in essence divided?")

Carol, now wondering whether DD found Tom's name in the library
records showing that he had checked out those Horcrux books!