GoF CH 27-29 Post DH look/ Snape and Harry redux

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 182287

> Magpie wrote:
> > I think you're missing my point, which is that I'm completely 
off-
> book here. As long as basilisks exist in the WW--which they do--
they
> offer a possibility for venom that a Wizard can use to destroy a 
> Horcrux. As does the existance of other Horcrux defying things. It 
> doesn't have to come down to this basilisk in this Chamber killed 
in 
> this way because of the things done in this book. That's just the 
way
> it happened here, where everything follows everything else and 
comes
> back to Harry. But there's a big world out there of limitless 
> possiblities. <snip>
> 
> Carol reponds:
> Well, sure. Anything can happen. Superman can come in and defeat 
LV if
> we're going out of the book.
Or, if we stick to characters within the
> book, Grindelwald could have defeated DD with the Elder Wand and
> turned the upstart calling himself Voldemort to powder.
> 
> But my point is that *within the book* there's only one known
> Basilisk, and Harry, as the unwitting possessor of a soul bit
> belonging to the Heir of Slytherin, is the only one who can open 
the
> CoS, destroy the Basilisk, and make the Sword of Gryffindor 
capable of
> destroying Horcruxes.

Magpie:
Yes, that's what I'm talking about--anything can happen. Even 
without going so far afield as to bring in characters that don't 
exist in this canon. But that's what we were talking about--if Snape 
had never delivered the Prophecy (which was the means to Voldemort's 
destruction in the story) was the Wizarding World doomed to utter 
defeat forever? That's what I just don't think we can say. Because 
if you just look at it as the magical problem of one powerful wizard 
who has six Horcruxes it seems far too pessimistic to say there's no 
way that the WW could possibly have come up with a way of defeating 
him. We can't say that because we have no idea of the many variables 
that could have happened. 

Carol: 
> Who, in your alternate scenario (in which Snape remains a DE and
> doesn't set the chain of events that lead to the creation of a
> Prophecy Boy with a soul bit in his head) will figure out where the
> Ravenclaw Horcrux is? Who will discover that the diary is a 
Horcrux?
> Who will open the CoS and kill the Basilisk that does exist 
instead of
> hunting for (or hatching) another one? Isn't the hatching of a
> basilisk Dark Magic and against the law?

Magpie:
Obviously I don't know who would do it because that story doesn't 
exist. I don't understand why you're just assuming that something 
like killing the Basilisk in the CoS or hunting or hatching another 
one must be so incredibly impossible because it didn't happen here 
(and "it's illegal!" is never a reason something couldn't happen). 
As I said, I'm just looking at the core problem at hand (powerful, 
evil--but very flawed--wizard with six horcruxes with sadistic but 
also flawed followers vs. a world full of non-evil Wizards), and 
looking at that problem I can't possibly say that the only way to 
solve it is to have these events happen. We can't say there's no way 
Voldemort could ever have been defeated except for through this 
exact complicated mixture of happenstance, personal conflict, 
coincidence and sometimes authorial manipulation any more than I can 
say that Voldemort would definitely have been defeated some other 
way. I could probably make up my own story dealing with the Wizards 
we know in canon and wind up with Voldemort defeated. 

Actually, the main change one would have to make in imagining an 
alternate scenario would be to just imagine the WW as the world of 
adults faced with domination that it's supposed to be. There's a lot 
of effort on the part of the author and many characters in the books 
to make sure only Harry and the Trio do everything, even while we 
get vague attempts to pretend there's an actual war going on that 
should actually matter.

Carol:
> We have Dumbledore, who figured out part of the mystery, but even 
if
> he chooses a faithful Order member, who can't be Dark Arts expert
> Snape because in this scenario, Snape remains a DE, to share the
> Horcrux secret with, but how will two adult Order members retrieve 
the
> fake Horcrux? The boat won't allow two adults to ride in it. And 
one
> alone will die in the attempt (even if a Wizard other than DD could
> find his way in).

Magpie:
They use somebody other than a non-adult Wizard to retrieve it. You 
honestly can't imagine that a group of intelligent people could 
never come up with any way of ever working out a way to do this with 
the fate of their entire world riding on it? Or study the Dark Arts 
as well as Snape?

Carol:
 Who would save DD from the ring Horcrux? Without
> Harry's vision of Mr. Weasley in the MoM, how would he have figured
> out that Nagini was a Horcrux? Without Slughorn's true memory, how
> would he have known how many Horcruxes there were?

Magpie:
Again, this seems like coming back to the book, removing people, and 
then if there's nobody else in the room at that moment who would 
step in and do exactly the same thing that means Voldemort could 
never be defeated. Maybe Dumbledore dies from the ring Horcrux. 
Maybe somebody else figures out that Voldemort has Horcruxes (I'm 
sorry, this just doesn't seem like it's so impossible for somebody 
else to consider) and that Nagini is one (or maybe they just kill 
his snake because it would make sense to kill his snake and figure 
out she's a Horcrux due to whatever happens when they try to do 
that)? Maybe Slughorn just tells somebody that Voldemort talked 
about making 7 Horcruxes once (again, that's not a random thing for 
him to have come up with). Or maybe after years of Voldemort's reign 
we've got people on the DE side with insider information who get all 
this stuff that way. It doesn't take that much imagination to come 
up with alternate scenarios if you want to do that.

Carol:
> 
> Aside from the fact that without Godric's Hollow (and
> eavesdropper!Snape), we'd have no story,

Magpie:
Exactly, we have no story if by "story" we mean what happened in 
this book. We would have a different story, one that has nothing to 
do with this book, but could still happen in an alternate universe 
of this same world. That story could be anything. This conversation 
started because Alla didn't accept the idea that if Snape hadn't 
delivered the Prophecy, there was only one way Harry's life could 
have played out. 

What if Ginny Weasley had died in the CoS--or if she'd never 
existed? Does that mean that Harry could never have kids? After all, 
who else would he marry? He didn't love Cho, he doesn't show 
interest in other girls. She's his ideal. There's no other girl we 
can point to waiting in the wings that he'd definitely marry. Or 
could we just say that if she'd died maybe Harry would have met some 
other girl later in life (or reconsidered somebody he already knew) 
and married her?

Carol:
 with Harry if he survived as
> just another Wizard kid suffering from Voldie's regime, who *in 
the WW
> that we know* and among the characters that we know could have 
helped
> Dumbledore? Slughorn? DD couldn't even get the memory from him 
without
> Harry's Slytherinlike persuasion.

Magpie:
The Wizarding World *that we know* is bigger than the people 
centered on in this story. And frankly, even amongst the people we 
know in the story they could have done more. I can't say for sure 
that they would--maybe they all would have just thrown up their 
hands while Dumbledore shook his head and said that although he knew 
the problem, he couldn't tell them about it or solve it. But my 
imagination can come up with other scenarios than that.

Also, just regarding Slughorn's memory, there were plenty of ways to 
get that bit of information other than Harry's "Slytherinlike 
persuasion," which was in fact down to a bottle of Liquid Luck. 
(There was no reason for Harry to have to get it himself at all to 
begin with.) A potion which in itself obviously opens all sorts of 
other possibilities for winning.

I don't doubt the ability of fanfic writers to be able to imagine a 
story where Snape didn't deliver the Prophecy that still ends in the 
Horcruxes and Voldemort being destroyed using only characters and 
concepts that do or should currently exist in canon. There's a lot 
to work with there. So I can't say it could never have happened. It 
could actually make for an equally interesting story. It just 
wouldn't be this story. But I think a good fanfic author could make 
it believable as what could have happened.

-m