Who needs Harry? (was: GoF CH 27-29 Post DH look/ Snape and Harry redux)

[Carol]

No: HPFGUIDX 182291

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03"
<horridporrid03 at ...> wrote:
>
> > >>Magpie wrote:
> > > I think you're missing my point, which is that I'm completely off-
> > > book here.
> > > <snip>
> > > But there's a big world out there of limitless possiblities.     
> > > <snip>
> 
> > >>Carol reponds:
> > Well, sure. Anything can happen. Superman can come in and defeat LV 
> > if we're going out of the book.
> > <snip>
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> Well, no.  Superman doesn't exist in the universe JKR created. (I'm 
> not sure he'd even exist as a comic book character -- not much Muggle 
> pop culture in JKR's world.)   Magpie isn't suggesting going out of 
> JKR's world.  She's just looking at how things could have worked 
> outside of the *plot*.  (At least, that's what I think she's 
> suggesting.  Correct me if I'm wrong. <g>)
> 
> > >>Carol:
> > But my point is that *within the book* there's only one known
> > Basilisk, and Harry, as the unwitting possessor of a soul bit
> > belonging to the Heir of Slytherin, is the only one who can open the
> > CoS, destroy the Basilisk, and make the Sword of Gryffindor capable 
> > of destroying Horcruxes.
> > <snip>
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> True.  But a Basilisk stained Gryffindor sword isn't the only way to 
> destroy Horcruxes.  Actually, they were rather easy to destroy if you 
> had the knack.  Not for school children, of course.  But any Dark 
> Art's expert should have been able to do it easy-peasy. (I mean if 
> *Crabbe* could call up the proper destructive force, I'm quite 
> confident an Unspeakable should have had the proper skills.)
> 
> > >>Carol:
> > And Dumbledore, for all his intelligence, can't find and destroy   
> > all the Horcruxes even though he suspects that they exist until the 
> > events at Godric's Hollow make it possible.
> > <snip>
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> IIRC, doesn't it take Dumbledore running across the destroyed diary 
> horcrux to figure out that this is what's keeping Voldemort alive?  
> Which... yeah, I'm not all that impressed with Dumbledore's vaunted 
> intelligence, quite frankly.  Especially as his grand plan nearly 
> fell down around his ears.  (Isn't it Dumbledore's plans that 
> generally end up with someone on his side dead?)
> 
> I agree with Magpie that unfortunately JKR had to create an Idiot 
> World for Harry to be its great hope.  But assuming a modicum of 
> deductive ability and a strong enough desire to overthrow Voldemort, 
> any group of wizards should have figured it all out.  
> 
> Frankly, I think Dumbledore, with his inability to play well with 
> others, and the comforting but in the end weakening reliance on Harry 
> to save them all, *prevented* Voldemort's destruction.  Because 
> Dumbledore was so stuck on the prophecy (*Harry* had to be the one to 
> do it) and because he refused to form any kind of think-tank, no one 
> did anything while Voldemort's power grew.
> 
> > >>Carol:
> > <snip>
> > Harry and Harry alone is "the one with the power to defeat          
> > Voldemort."
> > He has "the power that Voldemort knows not" (sacrificial love)...   
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> I'm still unclear on how "sacrificial love" destroyed Voldemort.  I 
> mean, it caused Voldemort's AK to rebound, but wouldn't a plain old 
> AK have done?  All Harry's "love shield" seemed to do was prevent him 
> from actually doing the deed.  
> 
> [Philosophical aside: Though really, in the end he did kill Voldemort 
> right?  I mean, sure he self-defended Voldemort to death, but it was 
> because of Harry Voldemort died.  Harry not being an actual killer 
> seems more like a technical out, IMO.]
> 
> And there wasn't anything about Harry's love that helped him find the 
> Horcruxes.  They just kind of fell into his lap.  (Some more 
> organically than others.)
> 
> > >>Carol:
> > ...and Voldemort has made him his "equal," not in power or ability 
> > but in the ability to speak Parseltongue...
> > <snip> 
> > ...and get into Voldie's mind via the soul bit, an ability that no 
> > one else has (though perhaps DD did some undetectable Legilimency   
> > when Tom was in his office applying for the DADA position).
> > <snip>
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> But that's just what gave Harry a personal edge in figuring out 
> Voldemort's next move.  It meant that Harry didn't need to be all 
> that observant or smart to find the horcruxes.  But a wizard or witch 
> with more intelligence and skill than Harry should have been able to 
> figure Voldemort out.  It's not like Voldemort was all that 
> complicated.
> 
> Now, we don't actually *meet* any intelligent or observant wizards or 
> witches, so a certain level of stupidity may well be part and parcel 
> of JKR's world.  As Magpie points out, they kind of seemed eager for 
> some form of Overlord, whether Voldemort or Dumbledore or Harry in 
> the end.  But, take away that base level of stupidity, and some basic 
> detective work would have given those working against Voldemort the 
> same information Harry gains through his ability to eavesdrop on 
> Voldemort.
> 
> This is part of the reason the series fell apart for me, honestly.  
> Not only did it not make sense that everything relied on Harry, the 
> WW suffered more *because* they relied so much on Harry.  There was 
> nothing that occurred in book 7 that showed me why a crack group of 
> wizards couldn't have defeated Voldemort way back before Harry was 
> even born.  In fact, it made it rather embarrassing for all involved 
> that Voldemort *wasn't* defeated.  At least, IMO. <g>
> 
> Betsy Hp (great believer in deductive reasoning <bg>)
>
Carol responds:

I can see a group of intelligent Wizards (admittedly, we don't see
many such people in the WW that JKR created) figuring out that a
Horcrux, perhaps two, are keeping Voldemort alive, but that could only
happen if he's "killed." (And for all we know, a regular AK wouldn't
kill him; he'd just possess his own unharmed body.) And if his body is
destroyed, as at GH, it would take Dumbledore, who has been collecting
memories related to Voldemort's past (including memories of many
people now dead) and has, IMO, deduced before GH that Voldemort may be
making Horcruxes, to figure out that despite evidence to the contrary,
Voldemort isn't dead.

The problem is, the possibility of creating Horcruxes *is not common
knowledge.* Maybe the students of Durmstrang know about them, but
Hogwarts-educated students don't. Horcruxes have been a forbidden
topic at Hogwarts since Tom Riddle's time, and Dumbledore has removed
all the books on the topic from the library. Those hypothetical
intelligent wizards would have to include Slughorn or someone in his
age bracket because no one younger than Tom Riddle (now in his early
seventies), not even Dark Arts expert Snape, would know about them. We
could even have Slughorn finding his courage and admitting that
Voldemort wanted to make six Horcruxes (not likely without a push from
Dumbledore and the incentive of "collecting" Harry, not to mention the
felicitous influence of a certain potion, but anything's possible).
But how is anyone other than Dumbledore, who has researched Tom
Riddle's past, supposed to know what those Horcruxes are? Who besides
DD would know about the ring, the cup, and the locket, or figure out
where they might be hidden?

No group of intelligent witches and wizards, let's say Amelia Bones,
Barty Crouch Sr., and Rufus Scrimgeour, or the original Order of the
Phoenix, is going to figure this out on their own, even if they're old
enough to have been at Hogwarts with Tom Riddle, because no witch or
wizard who hates Dark Magic would have been researching Horcruxes in
the Restricted section of Hogwarts before DD removed the books. *If
the WW knew about Horcruxes, how could LV have kept them secret even
from his followers?* (Reggie finding out about them is a Flint, or at
least an extreme improbability, but let it go. I like him and his
story, and without him, Reformed!Kreacher is impossible.)

By all means, kill Nagini if you can, whether she's a Horcrux or not,
because she's evil and dangerous. But who besides Dumbledore knows
where the Gaunts lived? Who besides Dumbledore would know about the
cave? Who besides Dumbledore knows about Tom Riddle's penchant for
collecting "trophies," or about the ring, the locket, and the cup? 

The only scenario I can think of other than the one with Harry is a
Dumbledore who shares his knowledge with Order members (one who never
met Grindelwald, I suppose), and even then, our nonmanipulative,
nonsecretive DD wouldn't know about the diary or the Ravenclaw
Horcrux, even if he somehow persuaded Slughorn to present him with an
unaltered memory and knew how many Horcruxes there were. And without a
venom-imbued Sword of Gryffindor or access to the Basilisk in the
basement (only Harry can manage that part of the task), they'd have to
find another Basilisk ("May we borrow some Basilisk venom? We have
some Horcruxes to destroy"), risk raising one themselves (not a smart
idea since only a Parselmouth can control a Basilisk), or find some
other means to destroy the Horcruxes. (Fiend-Fyre? They'd have to be
as stupid as Crabbe to use something so uncontrollable. And if other
means were available, DD wouldn't have needed to pass on the Sword to
Harry or use it himself.) 

If you remove Dumbledore from the story, you've simply got an earlier
takeover of the MoM and Hogwarts, with no one investigating Tom's past
in ways that only a skilled Legilimens could do.

But even with a kinder, gentler Dumbledore who shares his information
(but doesn't have Snape to tell him what LV is currently up to) and a
cooperative Slughorn, you've got to have Harry somewhere in the mix,
and a Harry without the soul bit in his scar won't do. Felix Felicis
*might* enable DD to coax the truth out of Helena Ravenclaw and to
find the diadem in the RoR, but only Harry can discover and destroy
the diary, which was only at Hogwarts in the first place because
Voldemort had "died" at Godric's Hollow. 

It's possible that Dumbledore could vaporize (not kill) LV with the
Elder Wand, but he would keep coming back. And Dumbledore will die
eventually even without the ring Horcrux and/or the potion in the
cave. Voldemort won't, so long as a single Horcrux exists.

Carol, still arguing that, within the world that JKR has created,
Godric's Hollow is a prerequisite to Voldemort's fall